Advocate For The Whole World.

[Firstfruits]

Whether we are believers or not, if we sin the only way given for salvation is according to Christs commandment given to his Disciples.

It is all through Jesus.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

1 Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Christians have not cornered to market for Jesus.

It does not say if christians sin, it says "If any man sin".

Firstfruits

[TexUs]

John was writing this letter to fellow believers in Christ.

"1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world."
Who is "children", "you", "ours"??? Who is "friends" spoken later? Brothers and sisters in Christ. We see this in the beginning of chapter 1. "And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ."

[Firstfruits]

John was writing this letter to fellow believers in Christ.

"1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world."
Who is "children", "you", "ours"??? Who is "friends" spoken later? Brothers and sisters in Christ. We see this in the beginning of chapter 1. "And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ."

I agree that John was speaking to believers however there is one advocate for all sinners, as is stated in the scripture.

1 Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1 Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

If any man sin.

Firstfruits

[TexUs]

I agree that John was speaking to believers however there is one advocate for all sinners, as is stated in the scripture.

1 Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1 Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

If any man sin.

Firstfruits

First of all, as I said, this was written to those already in Christ, and it is a primary Jewish audience (remember the Jewish mentality was that it was THEIR savior...)

To begin, "kosmos" is the Greek used for world. If you know what it means, great, but in a nutshell it was used interchangeably as small or localized (area or people) and also widespread or complete (area or people). The problem is the English language does not have an equivalent, so they just chose the latter variation and translated it world.
See John 12:19 for a specific localized example that comes to mind. We know this word does not always mean "literally the entire world of all people".

So, that eliminates that word as defining this passage. We have to go to context to understand the usage of that word.


Second, I could also argue, more on my personal opinion, but this is also a reference of "not for our's [Jewish], but also for the sins of the whole world [Gentile as well]"
John Chapter 11 helps to illustrate my view... "he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad."
So if you take that and apply it to this passage, "not for our's [the nation's] only, but also for the sins of the whole world [those scattered abroad]"

[Firstfruits]

First of all, as I said, this was written to those already in Christ, and it is a primary Jewish audience (remember the Jewish mentality was that it was THEIR savior...)

To begin, "kosmos" is the Greek used for world. If you know what it means, great, but in a nutshell it was used interchangeably as small or localized (area or people) and also widespread or complete (area or people). The problem is the English language does not have an equivalent, so they just chose the latter variation and translated it world.
See John 12:19 for a specific localized example that comes to mind. We know this word does not always mean "literally the entire world of all people".

So, that eliminates that word as defining this passage. We have to go to context to understand the usage of that word.


Second, I could also argue, more on my personal opinion, but this is also a reference of "not for our's [Jewish], but also for the sins of the whole world [Gentile as well]"
John Chapter 11 helps to illustrate my view... "he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad."
So if you take that and apply it to this passage, "not for our's [the nation's] only, but also for the sins of the whole world [those scattered abroad]"

The message is the same for all, whether Jew or Gentile, all unrighteousness is sin. As it says "if any man sin"

1 Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1 Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Jesus is the mediater between God and man.

Firstfruits

[TexUs]

I send an email out to all the people I work with.
"If anyone needs help with ____ today I shall be available between X and X".

Does that literally mean all persons in the world or is it dependent upon audience, you think?

[ClayInHisHands]

Hey, TexUs, your fingers and hands must be sore.

Almost 200 posts in 7 days....whew!! I've enjoyed what you've had to say...so keep it up though.

[Firstfruits]

I send an email out to all the people I work with.
"If anyone needs help with ____ today I shall be available between X and X".

Does that literally mean all persons in the world or is it dependent upon audience, you think?

It states "if any man sin" It also states "for the whole world".

Firstfruits

[TexUs]

Hey, TexUs, your fingers and hands must be sore.

Almost 200 posts in 7 days....whew!! I've enjoyed what you've had to say...so keep it up though.

It states "if any man sin" It also states "for the whole world".

Firstfruits

You are not reading what I'm saying, and you did not answer my question.

I've already shown you the second half, "world"- is not what you think it means.
I've also already shown you that "any man" isn't what you think it means, either.

Best case for you is that there's a draw and it can be taken either way. However I don't think, given the audience of the letter, that's the case.

If you want to ignore those things (which come from a study of the text rather than just reading at face value), then that's your choice.

[Firstfruits]

You are not reading what I'm saying, and you did not answer my question.

I've already shown you the second half, "world"- is not what you think it means.
I've also already shown you that "any man" isn't what you think it means, either.

Best case for you is that there's a draw and it can be taken either way. However I don't think, given the audience of the letter, that's the case.

If you want to ignore those things (which come from a study of the text rather than just reading at face value), then that's your choice.

So Jesus stops being the mediator between God and man for sin except for believers? I would rather accept what is written at face value.

2 Cor 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

1 Cor 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

I take it that you do not agree with that which is written, as though there is something hidden?

What do you say?

2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

Firstfruits

[TexUs]

So Jesus stops being the mediator between God and man for sin except for believers? I would rather accept what is written at face value.

That's exactly right.
You think Jesus will still intercede for these men?
"I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!" Matt 7:23

You can accept whatever you want to accept but the fact is Christ won't intercede for those not in him.

[Firstfruits]

If Jesus is not an advocate for the whole world, and is only for believers then how do we explain the following?

1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

1 Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Jn 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Believers do not need an advocate.


Mt 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

Mk 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Firstfruits

[markedward]

So what exactly is your point in all this, Firstfruits?

I doubt you're arguing in favor of universalism (that "the whole world" will be saved)... so what exactly is it you are arguing for?

[Firstfruits]

That's exactly right.
You think Jesus will still intercede for these men?
"I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!" Matt 7:23

You can accept whatever you want to accept but the fact is Christ won't intercede for those not in him.

So then if you sin as do those in the world you do not expect Jesus to to save you once you have repented?

Firstfruits

[Firstfruits]

So what exactly is your point in all this, Firstfruits?

I doubt you're arguing in favor of universalism (that "the whole world" will be saved)... so what exactly is it you are arguing for?

Jesus is the advocate fore to whole world, otherwise how would we that were unbelievers be saved if not for Jesus, our advocate.

Firstfruits