Can You Hate Someone and Be a True Christian? - Tim Conway

[PJW]

Not mistaken...you're misunderstanding me!


Nobody I've seen is trying to prove this. The question is whether a saint can sin, not whether the defeated enemy has more power. His power is deception, over which the Truth is victorious.


Praise God! So have I. The difference is that I understand that growth must take place, and that mistakes are made in the growing process. Peter made several of them. The saints at Corinth made several of them. Yet nowhere are any of these folks referred to as less than saints and siblings in Christ.


What Spirit was in Paul? I'm sure you've heard these examples before. Whatever doctrinal differences may lie between us, God will make plain to us. Carry on.

blessings,

W

The mistake I referred to was that anyone can prove that aChristian will sin. (post 44)
“Whosoever abideth in Him SINNETH NOT: Whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous. HE THAT COMMITTETH SIN IS OF THE DEVIL; For the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth NOT commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: AND HE CANNOT SIN, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is NOT OF GOD, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 Jo 3:6-10)
There is no question that a Christian/saint WON’T sin.
Jesus said, “And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” Free of what? The Jews asked. “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.” (Jo 8:32-34) If you adhered to the truth Jesus referred to, then you would be free of servitude to sin. Or was the Christ wrong?
Your assertion that mistakes were made is valid, but according to God’s word, sin is NOT.
Paul’s letter to the Corinthians was an attempt to exhort the true believers in Jesus Christ, and to“weed-out” the …sinners. Here’s what Paul said in one case, “…To deliver such an one unto satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven,that ye may be a new lump, as YE ARE UNLEAVENED.”… (1 Cor 5:5-7) And leaven is again mentioned in Gal 5:9, “A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.” Leaven is called “malice and wickedness” in 1 Cor 5:8.
To allow sin in your midst will corrupt you.
If a sinner repents, really turns from sin, he would be part of the body of Christ. But whatever repenting he had done earlier has been exposed as false. He was not in the body of Christ.
The OP was "can a man hate, and still be a Christian".
The answer is, No, he cannot.

[PJW]

Ya find it in the Bible

Here ya go

Matthew 18, starting at verse 10

After having read the verses, I can see Jesus' concern for the lost. But there is a difference between a sheep who is lost and a man who choses to offend God. And yet if the ungodly does change his heart, (repent), he would be considered a member of the body of Christ. But his earlier repentance has been manifested to be false. And false repenters are not Christians.
Isn't all missionary work and all evangelism ultimately a search for the lost? But if those being "served" won't accept the gospel, do we hound them to the grave? Once the seed is sown, their souls are in their own hands. All we can do is live a Godly life, one void of sin, to show the joy and hope we have in Christ Jesus? Anything else is a false witness.

[Slug1]

After having read the verses, I can see Jesus' concern for the lost. But there is a difference between a sheep who is lost and a man who choses to offend God.

Let's first define sheep?

Is this parable about "sheep" as in sheep are those who are IN Christ... thus they are a sheep in the flock?

The "man" you talk about, if they are NOT a sheep, they are either a goat or a wolf. Neither are IN Christ even thought either CAN BE in the flock pretending to be a sheep. The parable shows us that Jesus only goes after those who are sheep. In other words... those in Him but stray away.

What does it mean to stray away... besides that the have begun to sin?

It seems you are not going to allow this parable to show you that a "sheep" who is a person in Christ... CAN wander away. To wander away is accomplished only ONE way and that is to sin.

Yet Jesus goes after them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You call them a "wanna-be" Christian!!!!!!!!!!!! In past threads you have called them a Christian, NO LONGER!!!!!!

[PJW]

Let's first define sheep?

Is this parable about "sheep" as in sheep are those who are IN Christ... thus they are a sheep in the flock?

The "man" you talk about, if they are NOT a sheep, they are either a goat or a wolf. Neither are IN Christ even thought either CAN BE in the flock pretending to be a sheep. The parable shows us that Jesus only goes after those who are sheep. In other words... those in Him but stray away.

What does it mean to stray away... besides that the have begun to sin?

It seems you are not going to allow this parable to show you that a "sheep" who is a person in Christ... CAN wander away. To wander away is accomplished only ONE way and that is to sin.

Yet Jesus goes after them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You call them a "wanna-be" Christian!!!!!!!!!!!! In past threads you have called them a Christian, NO LONGER!!!!!!

In verse 17, of Matt 18, we are told how to react to those that will not heed the church. What do YOU do?
As you've made clear to me how you don't believe any one can be free of sin, how do you differentiate between the obedient and the rebelious? If you have no "baseline" of Christian behavior, ie, righteousness, who exactly DO you chase after? Everybody? And who is doing the chasing? Other sinners?
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he CANNOT SIN, because he is born of God." (1 Jo 3:9)

[tango]

That's right, God has made a way for His children to walk without sin. Jesus said, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (Jo 8:32) Free of what? "Verily, verily, I say unto you, whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (Jo 8:34) The truth has freed me from service to sin.
I walk in the light, not in the darkness. If you are walking in the darkness, you cannot say you are without sin.

Awesome, so you have no sin? That's wonderful. Oh, wait:

1Jn 1:8-9 KJV If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Maybe you're deceiving yourself and the truth is not in you. If the truth is not in you I'm not sure how you can say you are without sin either.

There's quite a difference between someone who lives a life of habitual sin and someone who commits an occasional sin. If I see a beautiful woman across the street and my eyes dwell on her a little too long and maybe I have a few unhealthy thoughts about her, I potentially sin by lusting for her. If I commit that sin I can get on my knees and repent, and that sin can be forgiven. That's a world apart from if I made my living by running strip joints, routinely gave the girls the option to pay commission due to me in kind rather than in cash and had a side line in providing pictures to top-shelf magazines. Both are sins, both can be forgiven (although the work required to escape the latter situation is clearly more significant) but one is an occasional sin while the other is a habitual sin, a lifestyle sin if you like.

[Watchman]

I haven't read this entire thread, nor have I read the entirety of any of the threads re: the idea that a Christian cannot/does not sin. The parts I have read do not discuss man's anthropology in relation to the question.

People (souls) are made of the mixture of spirit and body (flesh.)
Sin has tainted our flesh by taking up residence therein.
God has rebirthed us by making us one spirit with Him.
Consequently, there are two competing entities (motivators) living within different parts of us--God in our spirits and sin in our flesh.

We are continually faced with choosing which one will be served in each situation.
.....When we heed the voice/urging/unction of God, then we are in a joint-venture (aka fellowship) with Him and we are walking in the light.
..........This is also known as walking by the Spirit, being led of the Spirit.
..........None sin when they are thus walking. It is impossible.
..........When we choose correctly, it is Christ's Spirit, with Whom we are one spirit, motivating us.
.....When we heed anything else, then we are not participating in that joint-venture.
..........When we choose wrongly, that is sin. We have missed the mark. Our actions reveal wrong motivation.
..........When we choose wrongly, it is not us, but sin that lives in our flesh motivating us, and we walk in darkness.
..........When we choose wrongly, we have the avenue of confession that returns us to participation with Papa.

Once we are born of God, we are His children, and that cannot be undone. No one can take us from His hands. We may stumble (sin), but we will not fall (perish.) Righteousness and sin compete with us. Righteousness operates from our deepest, most noble part--our spirit. Sin operates from the part of us that will be destroyed--our flesh. The battle between them will rage within us until the end, but the victory has already been won. Jesus died to pay for our sins...all of them. Once they are forgiven, they are entirely forgotten...all of them.

blessings,

Watchman

PS: scriptural support availble on request; however, I'm going back to bed at this time.

[Slug1]

In verse 17, of Matt 18, we are told how to react to those that will not heed the church. What do YOU do?

Let me ask you a question... you are saying that anyone who sins ISN'T a Christian, so how can you even understand scripture in the Bible that concerns Christians who ARE in sin??

To you, they are NOT even a Christian anymore so how would church leadership even have authority to do anything?

As you've made clear to me how you don't believe any one can be free of sin, how do you differentiate between the obedient and the rebelious?

You are avoiding the situation concerning a person who claims they are without sin as you claim about yourself. Here is the situation: YOU a person who claims to be without sin then ALSO claims that a Christian (one who is IN Christ) who does ONE SINGLE sin, is NOT a Christian any longer or that they are a Wanna-be Cristian.

You don't even believe that a Christian is capable of committing a SINGLE sin, yet you use Matthew 18, v17 and this shows you that Christians CAN sin... and also sin so badly, that they can receive a consequence of being booted from a church.

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he CANNOT SIN, because he is born of God." (1 Jo 3:9)

Yes... have you ever done a study about this scripture? I ask because when a person trips while in the race, they are NOT removed from the Body of Christ. You remember that Mt 18 scriptures? A person who sin and admits it, seeks counseling from church leadership and is counseling and prays to God for forgiveness is FORGIVEN and they continue to RUN. Brothers are GAINED this way.

You call them a Wanna-be, Christian. Calling a person who has done a sin a Wanna-be Christian is judging that person. You see brother, what has been happening in this and ALL past threads dealing with you judging people who are Christians... is ME bringing to your attention a SIN that you express toward us all. Now, according to the Matthew scriptures, if you HEAR me telling you about this fault, I have gained you as a BROTHER. However, you have NOT heard and OTHERS have now been included as it always happens in ALL these threads you involve yourself in. Gaining you as a brother has NOT happened because you WILL NOT admit to this fault you have. You continue to call every Christian who does "A" sin, a NON-Christian, or a Wanna-be Christian.

God will judge YOU as YOU have judged others: Matthew 7:1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Brother... that PLANK has caused you to judge others... has REALLY blinded you to something within your own heart because to judge others as YOU DO, reveals that there is something wrong in your heart for you to be able to even judge others in the way you do.

Even when you refuse any of this, the Bible is the truth so be warned once more: YOU will be judged AS you have judged others.

[PJW]

Awesome, so you have no sin? That's wonderful. Oh, wait:

1Jn 1:8-9 KJV If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Maybe you're deceiving yourself and the truth is not in you. If the truth is not in you I'm not sure how you can say you are without sin either.

There's quite a difference between someone who lives a life of habitual sin and someone who commits an occasional sin. If I see a beautiful woman across the street and my eyes dwell on her a little too long and maybe I have a few unhealthy thoughts about her, I potentially sin by lusting for her. If I commit that sin I can get on my knees and repent, and that sin can be forgiven. That's a world apart from if I made my living by running strip joints, routinely gave the girls the option to pay commission due to me in kind rather than in cash and had a side line in providing pictures to top-shelf magazines. Both are sins, both can be forgiven (although the work required to escape the latter situation is clearly more significant) but one is an occasional sin while the other is a habitual sin, a lifestyle sin if you like.

I'm glad you saw fit to print 1 Jo 1:9 with your reply. So if a man has been cleansed of all unrighteousness, as v9 purports, can he not say he is without sin? Or is he deceived?
The folks John was referring to in verse 8 were those cited in verse 6. Those who walk in darkness cannot say they have fellowship with Christ, nor can they say they are without sin.
There is no difference between an occasional sinner and a habitual sinners. Neither is born of God, for God's seed would have resisted the temptation. (1 Jo 3:9) By their sins they manifest a lack of repentance, whether 5 sins in a day or 5 in a year.

[PJW]

I haven't read this entire thread, nor have I read the entirety of any of the threads re: the idea that a Christian cannot/does not sin. The parts I have read do not discuss man's anthropology in relation to the question.

People (souls) are made of the mixture of spirit and body (flesh.)
Sin has tainted our flesh by taking up residence therein.
God has rebirthed us by making us one spirit with Him.
Consequently, there are two competing entities (motivators) living within different parts of us--God in our spirits and sin in our flesh.

We are continually faced with choosing which one will be served in each situation.
.....When we heed the voice/urging/unction of God, then we are in a joint-venture (aka fellowship) with Him and we are walking in the light.
..........This is also known as walking by the Spirit, being led of the Spirit.
..........None sin when they are thus walking. It is impossible.
..........When we choose correctly, it is Christ's Spirit, with Whom we are one spirit, motivating us.
.....When we heed anything else, then we are not participating in that joint-venture.
..........When we choose wrongly, that is sin. We have missed the mark. Our actions reveal wrong motivation.
..........When we choose wrongly, it is not us, but sin that lives in our flesh motivating us, and we walk in darkness.
..........When we choose wrongly, we have the avenue of confession that returns us to participation with Papa.

Once we are born of God, we are His children, and that cannot be undone. No one can take us from His hands. We may stumble (sin), but we will not fall (perish.) Righteousness and sin compete with us. Righteousness operates from our deepest, most noble part--our spirit. Sin operates from the part of us that will be destroyed--our flesh. The battle between them will rage within us until the end, but the victory has already been won. Jesus died to pay for our sins...all of them. Once they are forgiven, they are entirely forgotten...all of them.

blessings,

Watchman

PS: scriptural support availble on request; however, I'm going back to bed at this time.

1726 posts on a Christian website and you haven't heard or read about what happens to the "flesh" when a man is baptized in water?
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection. kNOWING THIS, THAT OUR OLD MAN IS CRUCIFIED WITH HIM, THAT THE BODY OF SIN MIGHT BE DESTROYED that henceforth we should not serve sin. FOR HE THAT IS DEAD IS FREED FROM SIN. (Romans 6:3-7)
My "old" self is dead, along with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
The competitor YOU face, is the word of God.

[Watchman]

The competitor YOU face, is the word of God.

Nope...it is with your understanding of the scriptures. The verses you posted above do not prove your pov, nor does your sarcasm (or choice of words.) I shall leave discussion of this particular topic with you to others. I am not led to take it any further.

be blessed,

Watchman

[PJW]

Let me ask you a question... you are saying that anyone who sins ISN'T a Christian, so how can you even understand scripture in the Bible that concerns Christians who ARE in sin??

To you, they are NOT even a Christian anymore so how would church leadership even have authority to do anything?


You are avoiding the situation concerning a person who claims they are without sin as you claim about yourself. Here is the situation: YOU a person who claims to be without sin then ALSO claims that a Christian (one who is IN Christ) who does ONE SINGLE sin, is NOT a Christian any longer or that they are a Wanna-be Cristian.

You don't even believe that a Christian is capable of committing a SINGLE sin, yet you use Matthew 18, v17 and this shows you that Christians CAN sin... and also sin so badly, that they can receive a consequence of being booted from a church.




Yes... have you ever done a study about this scripture? I ask because when a person trips while in the race, they are NOT removed from the Body of Christ. You remember that Mt 18 scriptures? A person who sin and admits it, seeks counseling from church leadership and is counseling and prays to God for forgiveness is FORGIVEN and they continue to RUN. Brothers are GAINED this way.

You call them a Wanna-be, Christian. Calling a person who has done a sin a Wanna-be Christian is judging that person. You see brother, what has been happening in this and ALL past threads dealing with you judging people who are Christians... is ME bringing to your attention a SIN that you express toward us all. Now, according to the Matthew scriptures, if you HEAR me telling you about this fault, I have gained you as a BROTHER. However, you have NOT heard and OTHERS have now been included as it always happens in ALL these threads you involve yourself in. Gaining you as a brother has NOT happened because you WILL NOT admit to this fault you have. You continue to call every Christian who does "A" sin, a NON-Christian, or a Wanna-be Christian.

God will judge YOU as YOU have judged others: Matthew 7:1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Brother... that PLANK has caused you to judge others... has REALLY blinded you to something within your own heart because to judge others as YOU DO, reveals that there is something wrong in your heart for you to be able to even judge others in the way you do.

Even when you refuse any of this, the Bible is the truth so be warned once more: YOU will be judged AS you have judged others.

I have been judged. "The wages of sin is death." (Ro 6:23) For my sins, I was crucified with Christ. (Ro 6:6)
Paul also writes, "Some men's sins are opened before hand, going before to judgement; and some men they follow after." (1 Tim 5:24) I have been judged for the old sins of my body with death for that body. Those who do not repent of all wickedness will die a second death.
The judgement I judge is the same judgement that I was judged by. Death is the end of sin. I have been re-born of incorruptable seed, by the word of God.
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, but after the Spirit." (Ro 8:1) How did I get "in" Christ Jesus? I was baptized into Christ Jesus. (Ro 6:3)
"So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." (Ro 8:8) I am not in the flesh, it has been circumcised. "In whom (Jesus) also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ." (Col 2:11)
If you were born of God, you wouldn't sin either, that is according to God in 1 Jo 3:9. "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God,..." (1 Jo 3:10)
"We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death." (1 Jo 3:14) No sin is of love.

[chad]

I have not seen the video – but here is my opinion.

There is a difference in hating the sin (or practices of sin within a person) and hating someone. It is ok to hate sin or the sin within the person, but not a person (someone) and not a brother or sister in Christ.

Our churches doctrine is to hate the sin practices or evil within the person, but not the person.

Hating Sin.

(Psa 97:10 NIV) Let those who love the LORD hate evil, for he guards the lives of his faithful ones and delivers them from the hand of the wicked.

(Prov 8:13 NIV) To fear the LORD is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech.

(Amos 5:15 NIV) Hate evil, love good; maintain justice in the courts. Perhaps the LORD God Almighty will have mercy on the remnant of Joseph.

(Rom 12:9 NIV) Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.


In Revelation, Jesus to the Angel in Ephesus writes in Revelation 2:6

(Rev 2:6 NIV) But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

Hating a Brother.

We cannot hate a brother or sister in Christ.

(1 John 2:9 NIV) Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.

(1 John 2:10 NIV) Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble.

(1 John 2:11 NIV) But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.

(1 John 4:20 NIV) If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.

(Lev 19:17 KJV) Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

But the scripture writes ...

(1 John 4:21 NIV) And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.

(Rom 12:10 NIV) Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves.


Hating Someone.

If we hate someone, instead of the sin, how can we possibly expect to fulfill the second commandment.

(Mat 22:37 NIV) Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' (38) This is the first and greatest commandment.

(Mat 22:39 NIV) And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

Hatred towards sin and evil – yes. Hatred towards people or brothers and sisters in Christ, no.

If we cannot love thy brother or sister in Christ, how can we possibly love they neighbor as yourself, let alone loving our enemies?


If we find ourselves hating somebody or a brother or sister in Christ, maybe it would be a good thing to bring it before God in prayer.

[PJW]

You are on the right track, chad.

[fewarechosen]

yes

Luk_14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

g3404

same word as this hate

Rev_2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

just food for thought since it is scripture.