Salvation is no longer of grace, if faith comes from the sinner...

[ThyWordIsTruth]

An amusing and interesting parable by Roger Olsen.

http://www.rogereolson.com/2010/08/0...ill-a-parable/

Grace and free will: a parable

Posted on August 9, 2010 by Roger
A Calvinist seminary professor lectured on the incompatibility of salvation by grace alone through faith alone and belief that in order to be saved a person must freely accept the grace of God. “Arminianism makes the individual person’s free choice the decisive factor in his salvation. Therefore, in his theology, salvation cannot be a free gift. By choosing it freely the person is contributing something to his own salvation. That’s a meritorious work and therefore his salvation would not be absolutely the work of God.”


After his lecture, while resting in his office, a student knocked on his door and comes in for a chat. “Professor, I don’t know where else to turn. I don’t have parents that can help me. I’m coming to you as a last resort to see if you have any advice. I’ve been ill lately and can’t work. I’m about to be evicted from my apartment and I have nowhere else to go. I haven’t eaten in three days because I have no money. Unless a miracle happens, I’m going to be homeless. Can you tell me where I can find help or at least pray with me that God will supply my need?


After some prayer and reflection, the professor took pity on the poor student and gave him a check for $1,000–just enough to pay a couple months rent and stock his kitchen with food while he regained his health and found a new job. It was truly a life saving response to the students’ need.
The student took the check, endorsed it, and deposited it in his bank account and then paid his rent and went on a grocery shopping spree.
A week later, the student was telling another student about the professor’s generosity: “Boy, did he ever save my life. If it wasn’t for him, right now I’d be living under the interstate bridge and begging for food.” The other students said, “Wow, you must really be grateful to the professor.” “Yes,” was the reply, “but I take some of the credit, too.” “How so?” the other student asked. “Well, after all, my reaching out and picking the check up off his desk when he laid it down in front of me and my endorsing it and depositing it in my bank account were my contributions to the rescue effort. I deserve some of the credit. After all, I endorsed the check; that was the decisive factor in my being rescued.”
The student who heard this was shocked and dismayed. He immediately went to the Calvinist professor and said “Did you know that student you gave money to is going around taking some of the credit for being rescued? He’s claiming that he partially earned the money by endorsing the check. ”


The professor was livid with anger at the ungratefulness of the student. “How dare he! That was a pure gift; he didn’t do anything to deserve any credit for it. He’s ungrateful as well as stupid.”


The reporting student said, “But professor, in your lecture you said that our free will decision to accept the grace of God would make it not a pure gift. You said our mere decision to allow God to save us, if it were truly free and not itself an act of God in us, would amount to ‘the decisive factor’ in our salvation. How is that different from that student’s claim about accepting the money you offered him? By your logic it seems he is justified in boasting–at least just a little. Why aren’t you willing to share the credit with him?”

[VerticalReality]

Yet that student that boasted is exactly why God won't allow even the slightest contribution on our part. Remember "lest any man should boast". I love how people who want so hard for our salvation to be based on some sorta effort on our part, make up cute little stories to try and prove their point.

The slightest contribution from us for what? It seems that reformed folks like to interpret Ephesians 2:8 as saying God is doing all the work as in He makes us believe. How can anyone read the bible and come away with the notion that God makes anyone believe? How many times were the Israelites punished by God because of their unbelief? Why is God punishing them for something they have no control over? They can't believe, right? The entire reformed argument is totally illogical. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Salvation is by grace. Okay. What is this grace? Salvation is a gift. Okay. What is this gift?

The answer:

Salvation is by Jesus. The gift is Jesus. The grace is Jesus. The works that He did can and will save. However, the passage says that it is by grace through faith. The word says that God has given each a measure of faith. Every person has been given the ability to believe. Being that God has given every person the ability to believe then He is perfectly just when He punishes those who choose not to believe. Mankind chooses not to use the measure of faith they have been given.

[BrianW]

Was Calvin crucified for you?

Was Arminius crucified for you?




I Corinthians
Divisions in the Church
10I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas[a]"; still another, "I follow Christ."

13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into[b] the name of Paul? 14I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. 16(Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."[c]

20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

[Butch5]

Yet that student that boasted is exactly why God won't allow even the slightest contribution on our part. Remember "lest any man should boast". I love how people who want so hard for our salvation to be based on some sorta effort on our part, make up cute little stories to try and prove their point.

Remember "lest any man should boast".

Context my friend context. Understand the passage in the context of the entire letter and the historical events of the time. The problem is that many Christians read the verse and apply a 21st century meaning to it.

[kay-gee]

Yet that student that boasted is exactly why God won't allow even the slightest contribution on our part. Remember "lest any man should boast". I love how people who want so hard for our salvation to be based on some sorta effort on our part, make up cute little stories to try and prove their point.

God DOES expect us to DO something. Always has.

Name ONE OT character that made it into the Bible because he did NOTHING!!!!

Faith does not even exist outside of DOING something.

all the best...

[Redeemed by Grace]

An amusing and interesting parable by Roger Olsen.

http://www.rogereolson.com/2010/08/0...ill-a-parable/

Grace and free will: a parable

Posted on August 9, 2010 by Roger
A Calvinist seminary professor lectured on the incompatibility of salvation by grace alone through faith alone and belief that in order to be saved a person must freely accept the grace of God. “Arminianism makes the individual person’s free choice the decisive factor in his salvation. Therefore, in his theology, salvation cannot be a free gift. By choosing it freely the person is contributing something to his own salvation. That’s a meritorious work and therefore his salvation would not be absolutely the work of God.”


After his lecture, while resting in his office, a student knocked on his door and comes in for a chat. “Professor, I don’t know where else to turn. I don’t have parents that can help me. I’m coming to you as a last resort to see if you have any advice. I’ve been ill lately and can’t work. I’m about to be evicted from my apartment and I have nowhere else to go. I haven’t eaten in three days because I have no money. Unless a miracle happens, I’m going to be homeless. Can you tell me where I can find help or at least pray with me that God will supply my need?


After some prayer and reflection, the professor took pity on the poor student and gave him a check for $1,000–just enough to pay a couple months rent and stock his kitchen with food while he regained his health and found a new job. It was truly a life saving response to the students’ need.
The student took the check, endorsed it, and deposited it in his bank account and then paid his rent and went on a grocery shopping spree.
A week later, the student was telling another student about the professor’s generosity: “Boy, did he ever save my life. If it wasn’t for him, right now I’d be living under the interstate bridge and begging for food.” The other students said, “Wow, you must really be grateful to the professor.” “Yes,” was the reply, “but I take some of the credit, too.” “How so?” the other student asked. “Well, after all, my reaching out and picking the check up off his desk when he laid it down in front of me and my endorsing it and depositing it in my bank account were my contributions to the rescue effort. I deserve some of the credit. After all, I endorsed the check; that was the decisive factor in my being rescued.”
The student who heard this was shocked and dismayed. He immediately went to the Calvinist professor and said “Did you know that student you gave money to is going around taking some of the credit for being rescued? He’s claiming that he partially earned the money by endorsing the check. ”


The professor was livid with anger at the ungratefulness of the student. “How dare he! That was a pure gift; he didn’t do anything to deserve any credit for it. He’s ungrateful as well as stupid.”


The reporting student said, “But professor, in your lecture you said that our free will decision to accept the grace of God would make it not a pure gift. You said our mere decision to allow God to save us, if it were truly free and not itself an act of God in us, would amount to ‘the decisive factor’ in our salvation. How is that different from that student’s claim about accepting the money you offered him? By your logic it seems he is justified in boasting–at least just a little. Why aren’t you willing to share the credit with him?”

ThyWord,

Yet another thread to position a division between the household? What is it that you want to say that you haven't already stated within threads past?

How about this question, do you see those so called reformed brothers and sisters who profess a saving faith in Jesus Christ as part of the household of God.... forget for a moment ariminian or calvin.... are we brothers and sisters in the same faith with you?

[ThyWordIsTruth]

Let's call this a social study. What will be the responses? Defending something to the point of being totally illogical, ignoring the point and pretending it doesn't exist, not understanding what the point of the story is (deliberately or through a refusal to understand), changing the subject, quoting other Scriptures and thus changing the subject, personal attacks, or making a logical riposte to the story.

[notuptome]

Faith comes from the word of God. Rom 10:17

Our faith, that which would originate from within us, would be insufficient to satisfy God. Christ alone was faithful and endured temptation and testing without falling.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Redeemed by Grace]

Let's call this a social study. What will be the responses? Defending something to the point of being totally illogical, ignoring the point and pretending it doesn't exist, not understanding what the point of the story is (deliberately or through a refusal to understand), changing the subject, quoting other Scriptures and thus changing the subject, personal attacks, or making a logical riposte to the story.

To your subscrip? ---> Tit 3:2 to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. Does this 'social study' you are presenting -- fit? Nice avoidance by the way about the reformed being brothers and sisters in faith....

[TexUs]

Let's call this a social study. What will be the responses? Defending something to the point of being totally illogical, ignoring the point and pretending it doesn't exist, not understanding what the point of the story is (deliberately or through a refusal to understand), changing the subject, quoting other Scriptures and thus changing the subject, personal attacks, or making a logical riposte to the story.

So you're posting inflammatory, extraneous messages with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response??????????

BTW, that's the definition of trolling: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forum_troll
Reported as such.

[1United]

An amusing and interesting parable by Roger Olsen.

http://www.rogereolson.com/2010/08/0...ill-a-parable/

Grace and free will: a parable

Posted on August 9, 2010 by Roger
A Calvinist seminary professor lectured on the incompatibility of salvation by grace alone through faith alone and belief that in order to be saved a person must freely accept the grace of God. “Arminianism makes the individual person’s free choice the decisive factor in his salvation. Therefore, in his theology, salvation cannot be a free gift. By choosing it freely the person is contributing something to his own salvation. That’s a meritorious work and therefore his salvation would not be absolutely the work of God.”


After his lecture, while resting in his office, a student knocked on his door and comes in for a chat. “Professor, I don’t know where else to turn. I don’t have parents that can help me. I’m coming to you as a last resort to see if you have any advice. I’ve been ill lately and can’t work. I’m about to be evicted from my apartment and I have nowhere else to go. I haven’t eaten in three days because I have no money. Unless a miracle happens, I’m going to be homeless. Can you tell me where I can find help or at least pray with me that God will supply my need?


After some prayer and reflection, the professor took pity on the poor student and gave him a check for $1,000–just enough to pay a couple months rent and stock his kitchen with food while he regained his health and found a new job. It was truly a life saving response to the students’ need.
The student took the check, endorsed it, and deposited it in his bank account and then paid his rent and went on a grocery shopping spree.
A week later, the student was telling another student about the professor’s generosity: “Boy, did he ever save my life. If it wasn’t for him, right now I’d be living under the interstate bridge and begging for food.” The other students said, “Wow, you must really be grateful to the professor.” “Yes,” was the reply, “but I take some of the credit, too.” “How so?” the other student asked. “Well, after all, my reaching out and picking the check up off his desk when he laid it down in front of me and my endorsing it and depositing it in my bank account were my contributions to the rescue effort. I deserve some of the credit. After all, I endorsed the check; that was the decisive factor in my being rescued.”
The student who heard this was shocked and dismayed. He immediately went to the Calvinist professor and said “Did you know that student you gave money to is going around taking some of the credit for being rescued? He’s claiming that he partially earned the money by endorsing the check. ”


The professor was livid with anger at the ungratefulness of the student. “How dare he! That was a pure gift; he didn’t do anything to deserve any credit for it. He’s ungrateful as well as stupid.”


The reporting student said, “But professor, in your lecture you said that our free will decision to accept the grace of God would make it not a pure gift. You said our mere decision to allow God to save us, if it were truly free and not itself an act of God in us, would amount to ‘the decisive factor’ in our salvation. How is that different from that student’s claim about accepting the money you offered him? By your logic it seems he is justified in boasting–at least just a little. Why aren’t you willing to share the credit with him?”

We are ultimately driven by our desires, and anyone truly believes that we are 'free' to choose aside from from what we desire most, you are fooling yourself

Here is my take:

Evil exists so we might experience the consequences of, so that we will come to desire that which is Good. We are slaves to our desires, and until we are able to desire something better than what we have and what we are, we cannot change (It is that simple).

Before we are able to change, we must first desire to be something better than what we are. The simple fact is that we are driven by our desires (Always) so it is only logical that a desire to serve God comes before we are even given an opportunity to humble ourselves to God.

Pride is acting on our selfish and lustful desires whereby we are incapable of submitting to something greater than ourselves. Obtaining the desire to be something better than what we are is the only way we will be able to tame such foolish pride.

A desire to be free from our selfish and lustful ways is the starting point to understanding our need for salvation. Even so, in order to obtain such a desire, we must first acknowledge that we are in fact selfish and lustful, and that we are slaves to such forces.

This occurs only when we have experienced enough of the negative consequences of said selfishness and lust. Life itself is a classroom (So to speak) and the evils in the world move us to desire something better, which is how we come to recognize our need for salvation in the first place.

Someone once suggested to me that it is humility that gives us an awareness of our need for salvation. It isn't humility that enables us to see our need for salvation, but rather life and the negative consequences we experience because of our and others misguided actions. Evil is the reason behind our motivation to change.

We simply come to desire change out of desperation to be free from the effects of evil, which just so happens stem from our selfish and lustful ways.

The good news in all of this is that God designed it all this way. He did so that we would come to desire good (God) over evil (Devil). Yes, we have the free will to choose as we desire, but our desires are dependent upon life circumstance, which in effect makes free will not so free.

God simply moves us towards fellowship with Him, through that which we have no control over (Life). Mankind desires to be in control, but living through such a desire is foolish pride. Life is the tool by which we come to desire Him more than our need to be in control. Control is an illusion (No if's, and's, or but's about it).

(It's All God)

[John146]

An amusing and interesting parable by Roger Olsen.

http://www.rogereolson.com/2010/08/0...ill-a-parable/

Grace and free will: a parable

Posted on August 9, 2010 by Roger
A Calvinist seminary professor lectured on the incompatibility of salvation by grace alone through faith alone and belief that in order to be saved a person must freely accept the grace of God. “Arminianism makes the individual person’s free choice the decisive factor in his salvation. Therefore, in his theology, salvation cannot be a free gift. By choosing it freely the person is contributing something to his own salvation. That’s a meritorious work and therefore his salvation would not be absolutely the work of God.”


After his lecture, while resting in his office, a student knocked on his door and comes in for a chat. “Professor, I don’t know where else to turn. I don’t have parents that can help me. I’m coming to you as a last resort to see if you have any advice. I’ve been ill lately and can’t work. I’m about to be evicted from my apartment and I have nowhere else to go. I haven’t eaten in three days because I have no money. Unless a miracle happens, I’m going to be homeless. Can you tell me where I can find help or at least pray with me that God will supply my need?


After some prayer and reflection, the professor took pity on the poor student and gave him a check for $1,000–just enough to pay a couple months rent and stock his kitchen with food while he regained his health and found a new job. It was truly a life saving response to the students’ need.
The student took the check, endorsed it, and deposited it in his bank account and then paid his rent and went on a grocery shopping spree.
A week later, the student was telling another student about the professor’s generosity: “Boy, did he ever save my life. If it wasn’t for him, right now I’d be living under the interstate bridge and begging for food.” The other students said, “Wow, you must really be grateful to the professor.” “Yes,” was the reply, “but I take some of the credit, too.” “How so?” the other student asked. “Well, after all, my reaching out and picking the check up off his desk when he laid it down in front of me and my endorsing it and depositing it in my bank account were my contributions to the rescue effort. I deserve some of the credit. After all, I endorsed the check; that was the decisive factor in my being rescued.”
The student who heard this was shocked and dismayed. He immediately went to the Calvinist professor and said “Did you know that student you gave money to is going around taking some of the credit for being rescued? He’s claiming that he partially earned the money by endorsing the check. ”


The professor was livid with anger at the ungratefulness of the student. “How dare he! That was a pure gift; he didn’t do anything to deserve any credit for it. He’s ungrateful as well as stupid.”


The reporting student said, “But professor, in your lecture you said that our free will decision to accept the grace of God would make it not a pure gift. You said our mere decision to allow God to save us, if it were truly free and not itself an act of God in us, would amount to ‘the decisive factor’ in our salvation. How is that different from that student’s claim about accepting the money you offered him? By your logic it seems he is justified in boasting–at least just a little. Why aren’t you willing to share the credit with him?”

I like that. It really shows the fallacy of Calvinistic logic when it comes to determining what man could or could not boast about in regards to salvation. There's no cause for boasting just because you accept a gift that was graciously offered. Scripture only says there would be cause for boasting if we had to work to earn our own salvation through our own righteousness.

I see your OP as not making light of the issue or an attempt to offend anyone, but as an effort to get people to think about why they believe what they do on this issue. Some try to say that man can't be responsible to do anything to receive salvation because if that was the case he could boast about it. But is that really true? What would man have to boast about after having humbled himself and accepted a free gift offered to him? If he truly humbled himself in accepting the gift why would he then turn around and try to boast of somehow earning the gift?

[kay-gee]

Faith is work. Work is faith

all the best...

[1United]

I like that. It really shows the fallacy of Calvinistic logic when it comes to determining what man could or could not boast about in regards to salvation. There's no cause for boasting just because you accept a gift that was graciously offered. Scripture only says there would be cause for boasting if we had to work to earn our own salvation through our own righteousness.

It is because of God that we are even able to accept the gift.

I see your OP as not making light of the issue or an attempt to offend anyone, but as an effort to get people to think about why they believe what they do on this issue. Some try to say that man can't be responsible to do anything to receive salvation because if that was the case he could boast about it. But is that really true? What would man have to boast about after having humbled himself and accepted a free gift offered to him? If he truly humbled himself in accepting the gift why would he then turn around and try to boast of somehow earning the gift?

Yet, many Christians do boast that they have been saved, all while criticizing others for not accepting the gift of salvation. Prime example: Many Christians look down on, and fault atheists for not accepting Christ, and even more than this not acknowledging the existence of God. If are were truly humble, then why would we boast that we have accepted Christ, and why would we judge those who haven't?

James

[VerticalReality]

It is because of God that we are even able to accept the gift.

God has given all men the ability to accept the gift. Still, some choose to reject it, and in that rejection God is just in His judgment of the wicked.

Yet, many Christians do boast that they have been saved, all while criticizing others for not accepting the gift of salvation.

I know not one Christian who believes they are working to earn their salvation, and again, reformed folks are taking Ephesians 2:8-9 out of context. Verse 9 is stating that we cannot perform works in the flesh and be perfected like Jesus. Jesus literally had no sin. He perfectly fulfilled every single law in existence. We cannot do that, and this is the context of Ephesians 2:8-9. Faith is not a work of the flesh.

Prime example: Many Christians look down on, and fault atheists for not accepting Christ, and even more than this not acknowledging the existence of God. If are were truly humble, then why would we boast that we have accepted Christ, and why would we judge those who haven't?

God has given all mankind the ability to believe, so the atheist has no excuse. That gives us no right to judge them or even be worried about that stuff when it comes to them, but at the same time they are not pre-programmed for eternal hellfire with no say-so in the matter.