cure-real
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 25 of 25

Thread: Would a perfect world be a boring world?

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Columbus Ohio
    Posts
    4,577
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Would a perfect world be a boring world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xel'Naga View Post
    That is a poor definition of free will, there is no need to restrict it to choices between good and evil, good and better. God is certainly free to do whatever He wants, I'd call that free will.
    Okay let's get to the heart of it.

    If God chose anything other than what is perfect, He would no longer be God.

    If you say there may be two perfect choices and God is free to choose, then you must also assume one choice has the potential of altering those things that God has already predestined and preordained, making God wrong, thus God is no longer God.

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    9,294
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Would a perfect world be a boring world?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomH View Post
    Okay let's get to the heart of it.

    If God chose anything other than what is perfect, He would no longer be God.

    If you say there may be two perfect choices and God is free to choose, then you must also assume one choice has the potential of altering those things that God has already predestined and preordained, making God wrong, thus God is no longer God.
    I don't understand how that the is 'heart of it', but in any case two things:

    1) This all depends on how you define perfection. For example, God chooses to work with people, and they are far from perfect. It occurs to me you may mean that Gods act of choosing - rather than the object of that choice - is what is perfect. Perhaps it would be better stated that if 'God' choose anything other than what is perfect, he wasn't 'God' in the first place. In any case I don't see how making an imperfect choice makes God, not-God; that is that 'best possible choice' and 'imperfect' - on the view of Open Theism - would be hard to differentiate. On a traditional point of view, we would discover we weren't really dealing with God - and so God hasn't been shown not to have been God. We would now only realize that what we thought was God, wasn't.

    2) I'm not Reformed, so I am not of the 'predestined' / 'preordained' opinion necessarily. There is no dilemma for me. On the other hand, we might ask "Did God have a choice in what he predestined and preordained". Presumably the answer would be "yes, of course - God could have predestined and preordained anything he wanted". Thus it's perfectly plausible that God did have a choice between 'two perfect alternatives'; choosing one and working from there (that is, subsequently predestining and preordaining).

    Not that I'm trying to argue with you, I just enjoy thinking. And think that the difference between 'Free will' and 'Perfect will' is an unnecessary splitting of hairs. Or that by 'free will' we're assuming some sort of definition (such as Libertarian or compatabilist) that isn't necessarily the case when speaking of God. That is that choices between 'good' and 'evil' aren't necessary to free will; there could be - and I suspect indeed are - many choices between good things.

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Columbus Ohio
    Posts
    4,577
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Would a perfect world be a boring world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xel'Naga View Post
    I don't understand how that the is 'heart of it', but in any case two things:

    1) This all depends on how you define perfection. For example, God chooses to work with people, and they are far from perfect. It occurs to me you may mean that Gods act of choosing - rather than the object of that choice - is what is perfect. Perhaps it would be better stated that if 'God' choose anything other than what is perfect, he wasn't 'God' in the first place. In any case I don't see how making an imperfect choice makes God, not-God; that is that 'best possible choice' and 'imperfect' - on the view of Open Theism - would be hard to differentiate. On a traditional point of view, we would discover we weren't really dealing with God - and so God hasn't been shown not to have been God. We would now only realize that what we thought was God, wasn't.

    2) I'm not Reformed, so I am not of the 'predestined' / 'preordained' opinion necessarily. There is no dilemma for me. On the other hand, we might ask "Did God have a choice in what he predestined and preordained". Presumably the answer would be "yes, of course - God could have predestined and preordained anything he wanted". Thus it's perfectly plausible that God did have a choice between 'two perfect alternatives'; choosing one and working from there (that is, subsequently predestining and preordaining).

    Not that I'm trying to argue with you, I just enjoy thinking. And think that the difference between 'Free will' and 'Perfect will' is an unnecessary splitting of hairs. Or that by 'free will' we're assuming some sort of definition (such as Libertarian or compatabilist) that isn't necessarily the case when speaking of God. That is that choices between 'good' and 'evil' aren't necessary to free will; there could be - and I suspect indeed are - many choices between good things.
    I realize you not arguing.

    Might I point out that you're using the old finite reasoning method.
    You're using the reasoning that in some point in the past, that God somehow decided it was time to sit down and plan out the future and decide how things were going to take place and exactly how He wanted to proceed. Decisions, decisions.

    Putting everything in perspective, there was never a time that God didn't know, His knowledge is infinite.

    So, if Gods wisdom is infinite, then when did He make any decisions at all?

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    9,294
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Would a perfect world be a boring world?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomH View Post
    I realize you not arguing.

    Might I point out that you're using the old finite reasoning method.

    You're using the reasoning that in some point in the past, that God somehow decided it was time to sit down and plan out the future and decide how things were going to take place and exactly how He wanted to proceed. Decisions, decisions.

    Putting everything in perspective, there was never a time that God didn't know, His knowledge is infinite.

    So, if Gods wisdom is infinite, then when did He make any decisions at all?
    Didn't know there was a name for what I was doing - yes, that is what I'm arguing. I'm distinguishing betwen a potential future, and the future as its actualized. God having middle knowledge.

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Columbus Ohio
    Posts
    4,577
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Would a perfect world be a boring world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xel'Naga View Post
    Didn't know there was a name for what I was doing - yes, that is what I'm arguing. I'm distinguishing betwen a potential future, and the future as its actualized. God having middle knowledge.
    And God is the Alpha and Omega in both being and knowledge. God has no middle knowledge. There is no past present or future for God. There just IS.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    9,294
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Would a perfect world be a boring world?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomH View Post
    And God is the Alpha and Omega in both being and knowledge. God has no middle knowledge. There is no past present or future for God. There just IS.
    God has middle knowledge, it's just to the extent (i.e. that Molinists suggest) that you would disagree. I'm of the opinion that before creation, God operated outside of time, but post-creation God operates within time.

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Columbus Ohio
    Posts
    4,577
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Would a perfect world be a boring world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xel'Naga View Post
    God has middle knowledge, it's just to the extent (i.e. that Molinists suggest) that you would disagree. I'm of the opinion that before creation, God operated outside of time, but post-creation God operates within time.
    There is only one instance when God operated within time that is backed up with Scripture.

    and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, to the Ascension.

    There are many instances that show that God does not operate in time.

    Every time God declared "I will". That was not a promise, it was a statement of fact.

    When Christ died for the "sins of the world" God operated outside of time.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Columbus Ohio
    Posts
    4,577
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Would a perfect world be a boring world?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomH View Post
    There is only one instance when God operated within time that is backed up with Scripture.

    and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, to the Ascension.

    There are many instances that show that God does not operate in time.

    Every time God declared "I will". That was not a promise, it was a statement of fact.

    When Christ died for the "sins of the world" God operated outside of time.
    You Might want to add the Book of Revelation to that also, since it was said "write down those things that you see."
    Last edited by TomH; Sep 1st 2010 at 07:20 PM. Reason: spelling

  9. #24
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Below the Mason Dixon
    Posts
    9,747

    Re: Would a perfect world be a boring world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffinator View Post
    Would a perfect society, such seen as in movies like Pleasant Ville, be a boring place to live?
    It will be perfect one day. I doubt you will be bored.

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    18

    Re: Would a perfect world be a boring world?

    Humans wouldn't know perfection if it jumped up and smacked them in the face. God is so much bigger, better and wiser than us that his definition of perfect is completely beyond our comprehension. I don't know what Heaven will be like other than it will be good and I will be happy. I expect to have more fun than ever before, experience more things than possible in this lifetime, hang out with God himself and do all sorts of other cool stuff

    Asp

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Does spirit world trump material world?
    By BrckBrln in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: Mar 9th 2009, 09:58 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •