Spiritual death, or real life death?

[crawfish]

Sure they did. We they banned from the tree of life later or that day? That day. I see no reason to think it was another.

Yes, but they didn't die. If God meant something other than "death that day" in His words, then it is a stretch.

Seems the opposite. Man physically died from Adam to Moses w/o the written law because they had the natural/moral law of conscience.
1Cor 15 is about physical, bodily, resurrection.

Ressurection, yet - but not eternity in this life. Instead of "dying, you shall die", Jesus has made it so "dying, you shall live". That is not talking about the physical end of this life.

[Sirus]

Yes, but they didn't die. If God meant something other than "death that day" in His words, then it is a stretch.

Well, again look up the phrase and let Scripture, context, and the end result, tell you what 'dying you will die' means.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die [dying you will die].

1Ki 2:42 And the king sent and called for Shimei, and said unto him, Did I not make thee to swear by the LORD, and protested unto thee, saying, Know for a certain, on the day thou goest out, and walkest abroad any whither, that thou shalt surely die [dying you will die]? and thou saidst unto me, The word that I have heard is good.

Shimei did not physically die the day he left because he had to return, but judgment was passed and the day he left he sealed his death, whether 2,3 days or a week. Makes no difference. It was the day he left, he made death certain, and thereby died that very day according to the courts judgment. Same for Adam.

Ressurection, yet - but not eternity in this life. Instead of "dying, you shall die", Jesus has made it so "dying, you shall live". That is not talking about the physical end of this life.

I disagree. Jesus was clear. That we have eternal life. Also He shall quicken our mortal bodies. That most certainly is talking about the physical flesh and bone (not blood) body our Lord had after His resurrection..

[BroRog]

You are purely guessing before Adam sinned nothng died in the garden. God created man to till the ground and put Adam in the garden to labor.

I don't remember any tilling going on prefall. The garden was a place where no tilling was needed. Tilling the ground was a punishment and took place after the fall.

[Redeemed by Grace]

However, there is scripture that tells us that Adam & Eve did NOT die physically in the day that they ate of the tree. The scripture in Romans and 1 Cor. indicate that it is not physical death they are talking about. By ruling out one option, we are left with only one other option.

Hmmm... So, When Adam was told by God that if he ate of that tree, that on that day he was going to die... Adam then went to his bible and looked up in the NT and stated, ahha, this is not a physical death, but spiritual? Now I know this is written with a twist of sarcasm, but do you really think Adam knew what spiritual death meant? Again... a big valley to cross to say that it was.

Look at John 8:52 - "At this the Jews exclaimed, "Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death." Jesus does not deny this accusation, so it should be assumed that he did, in fact, say it. So, either a) Jesus wasn't telling the truth, b) nobody has kept His word, or c) Jesus was talking about a different kind of death.

This is the resurrection!!! The cornerstone of the Christian faith!!! For truly there is the crimson thread all throughout scriptures that follows from the time of creation that points to Jesus Christ living dieing and living again, defeating the grave and death -- for the sins of many who would believe.


The Buddhist and new-ager would argue they are spiritual, and so would Israel when it would turn back and worship the idols of their handiwork, but the different and cornerstone of the Christian faith is sin brings death; Christ brings life, for which the angels only marvel.

Again to the OP, the answer is, has to be, must be A) The fall of man is physical death, final answer.

[Sirus]

I don't remember any tilling going on prefall.

when was there time for it? Just because it didn't happen doesn't mean it wouldn't have if Adam did not sin.

The garden was a place where no tilling was needed.

scripture? God created and made all things. The seed to yield fruit. After all, mortal man needed to eat! So the trees would naturally produce fruit -less after the ground was cursed (which curse was removed with Noah). This doesn't mean God did not intend for Adam to labor in the garden.

Tilling the ground was a punishment and took place after the fall.

scripture? It says the ground was cursed -Gen 3:17-19- making hard to get food. It does not say tilling was part of the curse. The level of work, without the tree of life's healing, was increased and the yield was decreased. How could tilling be a curse when God said He created man to till the ground?

Gen 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
Gen 2:6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
.............
......
Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress [labor - work] it and to keep it.

[crawfish]

Well, again look up the phrase and let Scripture, context, and the end result, tell you what 'dying you will die' means.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die [dying you will die].

1Ki 2:42 And the king sent and called for Shimei, and said unto him, Did I not make thee to swear by the LORD, and protested unto thee, saying, Know for a certain, on the day thou goest out, and walkest abroad any whither, that thou shalt surely die [dying you will die]? and thou saidst unto me, The word that I have heard is good.

Shimei did not physically die the day he left because he had to return, but judgment was passed and the day he left he sealed his death, whether 2,3 days or a week. Makes no difference. It was the day he left, he made death certain, and thereby died that very day according to the courts judgment. Same for Adam.

You might notice the difference in who is making the promise - God vs. Solomon. That is significant.

Anyway, the true explanation of "dying you will die" lies in the fact that written Hebrew has no punctuation. A repeated phrase like that indicates an exclamation.

I disagree. Jesus was clear. That we have eternal life. Also He shall quicken our mortal bodies. That most certainly is talking about the physical flesh and bone (not blood) body our Lord had after His resurrection..

This body? No, as scripture says it will return to dust. We will receive new bodies. I'm hoping the new one is a little more Brad Pitt than my current body.

[crawfish]

Hmmm... So, When Adam was told by God that if he ate of that tree, that on that day he was going to die... Adam then went to his bible and looked up in the NT and stated, ahha, this is not a physical death, but spiritual? Now I know this is written with a twist of sarcasm, but do you really think Adam knew what spiritual death meant? Again... a big valley to cross to say that it was.

Again, the serpent was able to play on Eve's lack of understanding by saying "you will NOT die on that day, you will become like God knowing good and evil". The serpent did not lie here, but he misled Adam on the true intent of God's words. And also again, how could Adam know what physical death was if he had never seen or experienced it? You'd have to consider that either way, Adam was dealing with something he did not understand here.

This is the resurrection!!! The cornerstone of the Christian faith!!! For truly there is the crimson thread all throughout scriptures that follows from the time of creation that points to Jesus Christ living dieing and living again, defeating the grave and death -- for the sins of many who would believe.


The Buddhist and new-ager would argue they are spiritual, and so would Israel when it would turn back and worship the idols of their handiwork, but the different and cornerstone of the Christian faith is sin brings death; Christ brings life, for which the angels only marvel.

Again to the OP, the answer is, has to be, must be A) The fall of man is physical death, final answer.

You're using a completely different use of the word "spiritual". I'm simply referring to a death that occurs to our eternal souls rather than to our physical bodies. And this is obviously true; unless we are taken in the air on the final day, we will all die and our physical bodies will return to the raw materials of the earth.

The saved WILL experience physical death. We will NOT experience eternal death, though, and we will be resurrected into new bodies and live for eternity. To the OP: reality has the final say here as to what it can and can't be. It can be denied no more than I can deny the nose on my face.

[Sirus]

You might notice the difference in who is making the promise - God vs. Solomon. That is significant.

Anyway, the true explanation of "dying you will die" lies in the fact that written Hebrew has no punctuation. A repeated phrase like that indicates an exclamation.

The Hebrew and the death is the same for both. God did not say if you eat of the ToK you will spiritually die. It's simply not in the text. All that IS in the text is if you eat from the ToK you will be separated from the tree of life I gave you to escape corruption, and you will live a hard life until you physically die -dust to dust- because you no longer have the tree of life to sustain your body.

This body? No, as scripture says it will return to dust. We will receive new bodies. I'm hoping the new one is a little more Brad Pitt than my current body.

I didn't say we would have this body (needing blood), but I did say this body will be changed (without blood). 1Cor is clear on this. It is not a completely different body, so you can give up hopes on the vain Brad Pitt thing. You will be you, without the need for blood and incorruptible. The seed that goes into the dust dies, no longer being a seed, becomes something else. It is changed through the process of death. God said this process is good.

[percho]

Absolutely. Lamb slain from the foundation of the world -before man was created --foreknowledge.

1) No. The first man was created physical to do what the second man did. To grow in grace and knowledge of God, not sin, and be glorified. He failed.
2) Yes. So God sent His Son (physical -second man) to grow in grace and knowledge of God, not sin, and be glorified (for the purpose of death -crucify the first man).

So if the first man was really capable of achieving that WHY was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world which I would assume was before the first man was created? Just in case?

[percho]

1Cor 15 is about physical, bodily, resurrection.

Where is this written?

[Sirus]

So if the first man was really capable of achieving that WHY was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world which I would assume was before the first man was created? Just in case?

foreknowledge

Question: If the first was not capable, wouldn't that make the second different?
I don't believe any scripture gives Jesus a God-edge over sin.

[Sirus]

1Cor 15 is about physical, bodily, resurrection.

Where is this written?

the entire chapter? The better question is, where is it not?

[crawfish]

the entire chapter? The better question is, where is it not?

I agree that it is about physical, bodily resurrection. However, it is not about the resurrection of the physical bodies of our current life. That makes no sense - everything about me, my height, weight, eye color, personality tendencies, etc. is given a baseline through my DNA. The good stuff and the bad stuff. It's hard to believe that the DNA that leads to bad traits will be a part of my new physical body.

42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

[Redeemed by Grace]

Again, the serpent was able to play on Eve's lack of understanding by saying "you will NOT die on that day, you will become like God knowing good and evil". The serpent did not lie here, but he misled Adam on the true intent of God's words.

I strongly disagree... for Satan is the father of all lies and was a liar and a murder from the beginning

John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

And also again, how could Adam know what physical death was if he had never seen or experienced it? You'd have to consider that either way, Adam was dealing with something he did not understand here.

I also disagree... For God told him...

You're using a completely different use of the word "spiritual". I'm simply referring to a death that occurs to our eternal souls rather than to our physical bodies.

Again, need to strongly disagree, for spiritual is spiritual... the body dies never to return, YET if you are in Christ, you will get a new body... but your spirit is alive...
IF, and I say If -- Adam died spiritually, describe what that is?

And this is obviously true; unless we are taken in the air on the final day, we will all die and our physical bodies will return to the raw materials of the earth.

One thing I can find agreement with.

The saved WILL experience physical death. We will NOT experience eternal death, though, and we will be resurrected into new bodies and live for eternity.

Sorta what I stated a few pages ago... Spiritual death is separation from God and that comes for those who don't believe in Christ at the end... so this is another reason why when Adam and Eve sinned, they were kicked out of the garden, this sin started their physical death process and they eventually died, just a God warned. All men now, as descendants of Adam and Eve, have sin, all men are destined to die... Satan manipulates God's word to better himself and indeed lied to Eve regarding God's warning of death.

To the OP: reality has the final say here as to what it can and can't be. It can be denied no more than I can deny the nose on my face.

God's word is the only truth, so reality - ie experience - is a false teacher many times to what is true or not. So you may have a nose as all others, but having a nose doesn't mean it smells everything correctly.

[Sirus]

I agree that it is about physical, bodily resurrection. However, it is not about the resurrection of the physical bodies of our current life. That makes no sense - everything about me, my height, weight, eye color, personality tendencies, etc. is given a baseline through my DNA. The good stuff and the bad stuff. It's hard to believe that the DNA that leads to bad traits will be a part of my new physical body.

Well, we are talking about the body, so I don't know how "personal tendencies" entered the picture. That being the case, how could any of the other traits you described be "bad stuff"?

Paul said it is changed and he didn't mention your looks. Even harder to believe IMO is that you will not be recognized as you. I mean, what would be the point of God changing everyones looks to something other than what they were here? Certainly possible but I don't see where is it implied.