Why Is/Isn't Nero The Beast (Preterism vs. Futurism)

[DurbanDude]

Durbandude,
Do you feel agree with any of the arguments made in this wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beast_%28preterism%29

I find it intriguing but not altogether convincing

Yes its a very interesting article. I do feel they put forward a good argument, however there are a couple of places where I feel they missed the point.

eg the period of persecution of the saints in uncertain, it could be as long as 4 years, although some have said even longer. But the 3.5 year claim is not unreasonable. What I do find illogical is relating the 3.5 years of persecution with Rev 13

13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
He demanded worship yet was not highly respected by his own people, let alone other nations. Just because he chose to persecute the saints for the last period of his life, does not line up with the bible which says the beast would be given power over the saints and other entities for 3.5 years. The man of sin of Thessalonians lines up way better with this beast of Rev 13 than Nero, who had no more power than any other Roman Emperor.

I find the logic of the Roman Empire's weakening under Nero and the 3 short reigning emperors as being compared to a deadly wound that amazes the world (Rev 13:3,4) to be a weak comparison.

We all know how the number 666 is easily found everywhere. There are convincig arguments for Islam having the number 666, and for the Pope's title (vicar of christ) also having the number 666, so I do not find that argument convincing at all. Some have said the symbol for Zionism contains 666 as well.

the article does not address the interpretation of the other two-horned beast of Rev 13, nor the fact that the beast is supposed to be slain at the second coming according to Rev 19.

Neither does the article explain how the beast did not exist during the writing of Rev but existed earlier and would exist afterwards (Rev 17, was and is not and will arise).

Neither does the article explain how Nero trampled all the other beasts as per Daniel 7, breaking the world into bits. Rome generally had a consoladating effect on the Meditteranean.

[TheAnswer99]

Yes its a very interesting article. I do feel they put forward a good argument, however there are a couple of places where I feel they missed the point.

eg the period of persecution of the saints in uncertain, it could be as long as 4 years, although some have said even longer. But the 3.5 year claim is not unreasonable. What I do find illogical is relating the 3.5 years of persecution with Rev 13

13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
He demanded worship yet was not highly respected by his own people, let alone other nations. Just because he chose to persecute the saints for the last period of his life, does not line up with the bible which says the beast would be given power over the saints and other entities for 3.5 years. The man of sin of Thessalonians lines up way better with this beast of Rev 13 than Nero, who had no more power than any other Roman Emperor.

I find the logic of the Roman Empire's weakening under Nero and the 3 short reigning emperors as being compared to a deadly wound that amazes the world (Rev 13:3,4) to be a weak comparison.

We all know how the number 666 is easily found everywhere. There are convincig arguments for Islam having the number 666, and for the Pope's title (vicar of christ) also having the number 666, so I do not find that argument convincing at all. Some have said the symbol for Zionism contains 666 as well.

the article does not address the interpretation of the other two-horned beast of Rev 13, nor the fact that the beast is supposed to be slain at the second coming according to Rev 19.

Neither does the article explain how the beast did not exist during the writing of Rev but existed earlier and would exist afterwards (Rev 17, was and is not and will arise).

Neither does the article explain how Nero trampled all the other beasts as per Daniel 7, breaking the world into bits. Rome generally had a consoladating effect on the Meditteranean.

very thorough analysis of this argument! Thanks! Very illuminating

Which eschatology do you subscribe to and why?

[markedward]

If you would be interested in a verse-by-verse study on Revelation 13 and its relationship to Nero, I'll just link you to these blog posts:
http://bibleforums.org/entry.php/249...elation-13.1-4
http://bibleforums.org/entry.php/249...lation-13.5-10
http://bibleforums.org/entry.php/249...ation-13.11-15
http://bibleforums.org/entry.php/249...ation-13.16-18

However, it would be recommended to read the whole study, from chapter 1 and onward, in order to understand the entire context. One simply can't jump into the middle of a study and expect to understand the reasoning for what's going on so far.

[DurbanDude]

very thorough analysis of this argument! Thanks! Very illuminating

Which eschatology do you subscribe to and why?

I am premill post-trib, but I have my own views on a lot of topics that just do not conform to any widely accepted current views.

eg I believe in a 3.5 year future period, believing the bible does not mention any 7 year period.
I believe Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 are prophesying a continuing Roman empire , not a historical Rome as per preterists, and not a revived Rome as per dispensationalists. Thus we are still in the stage of the East/West divided Rome as per Daniel 2:41
I believe the final beast empire is based in a seperate place geographically to Rome , yet still under the power of Rome; the little horn (Dan 7) = small country

[Caleb]

I think that if 'the beast' was Nero, then it is a bit odd that the some of the 'early Church' were still looking for who he may be.

[Teleiosis]

Well first of all, Nero didn't satisfy everything about the beast of a man who will rule.

One basic fact of prophecy is that the destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70 points to the people from whom the final ruler will come. Since Nero ruled prior to that; he is eliminated from being THE beast of a man we speak of in THE anti-Christ.

Daniel 9:26 After the sixty–two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.

Still, there is a passage after the parallel account of the one 'seven' in Revelation chapters 13-16 (inclusive) in the explanatory chapters of 17 and 18 which may include Nero.

Rev 17:3 Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns.

9 “This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while.

Looking from God's timeless aspect from Heaven, but at the time of the end as presented in John's visions as God gave them to him, we can look at the seven heads as being seven kings.



At the time of the end, five have fallen. Nero might very well be one of those. Hitler would be the first candidate on my short list of possibilities for historical tyrants who were opposed to God fundamentally, Stalin and Napoleon would be other candidates...

The sixth is the anti-Christ, the ruler who will come, and the Bible is consistent in point to a Roman ruler, from the statue of Nebuchadnezzar, to the seven hills of Rome, to the people who destroy the Temple (actual building) in Daniel 9.

The seventh in this timeline view would be the one who is raised up for only a little while at the end of the Millennium.

So a literal, futuristic interpretation can logically be made from Scripture.

[moonglow]

I'm just now getting into the whole eschatology thing so forgive my ignorance on this issue

I'm familiar with the Nero=Best argument, and I was just reading a preterist article on the subject

I am partial..here is one video of a series about Nero being the beast that you might find helpful:

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Most of all of course pray and ask God to give you wisdom on this.

God bless

[Teleiosis]

Most of all of course pray and ask God to give you wisdom on this.

You do know that is this kind of line is not a proper Biblical test - that any "wisdom" a person receives which is positive towards your position is self-serving? How about those who pray and receive wisdom on this which points away from your position? Does their "wisdom" invalidate the material you have provided? Do you know that this approach for positive prayer guidance is also used by the Mormons to hook new recruits?

Furthermore, the "soon" your video witnesses talk about, doesn't mean in the Greek what he wants it to say from the English.

"'Engys' is used twice in the book of Revelation. In fact, the word 'engys' bookends Revelation in 1:3 and 22:10. The apostle writes, "Blessed in he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things that are written in it; for the time is 'near' (1:3). At the end of the book an angel speaks to John and says, "Do not seal up the words of this prophecy of the book, for the time is 'near'...

"In the original Greek text, both Revelation 1:3 and 22:10 read nearly the same way. The verses do not say the kingdom of God (or heaven) is at hand, but 'the season (kairos) is sure'. Here in Revelation, why did John not use the Greek word 'kronos', which would have indicated a nearness in a certain chronological sense? Also, why in these verses did he not use the verb 'engyzo' (with the perfect sense), but instead, simply the noun 'enbys'? John is simply focusing on the fact of the certainty about the season someday coming, and is not emphasizing the closeness of the events." (p. 293)

"This family of Greek words (engys, engizo) is a compound with a preposition and a noun meaning "in (the) hand". As an adverb, it carries the thought that something "is certain, it is a sure thing", "one has it in his hand". The 'Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament" Greek lexicon gives the meaning of the related word 'engyos' as "standing as surety, guaranteeing... In other words, 'certainty' is one of the most compelling meanings for the word..." (p. 285)

- The End Times Controversy: The Second Coming Under Attack by Tim F. LaHaye (Editor), Thomas Ice (Editor)

[moonglow]

You do know that is this kind of line is not a proper Biblical test - that any "wisdom" a person receives which is positive towards your position is self-serving? How about those who pray and receive wisdom on this which points away from your position? Does their "wisdom" invalidate the material you have provided? Do you know that this approach for positive prayer guidance is also used by the Mormons to hook new recruits?

Er...I am not a Mormon and no I didn't know this. Maybe it should be a board announcement because alot of us say this. I don't think we should avoid saying what we do simply because others of other beliefs say it actually. The bible clearly says to pray for such things.

I never ever suggested any wisdom gained should favor my position. I am sorry you thought that. God holds the truth...not me...not you...none of us. So I always tell people to always look to Him for the final truth and understanding after we have all given our two cents on any subject.

I am not on this thread to debate my position. I don't have the time or the energy. Done it too many times...should have wrote a book. I am just giving the OP information as was requested.

God bless

[Teleiosis]

I didn't mean to impugn your motive or intent, nor was I accusing you of belonging to the Mormon cult.

However, I was alarmed at the "test" I read into your post for "wisdom." While I see nothing wrong with praying for guidance, it is best to check any intuition or inspired thought which comes to us just to make sure we aren't deceiving ourselves.

As far as wisdom is concerned, none of us are similarly gifted, and we come with varying degrees of understanding, intelligence, discernment, and wisdom. Neither do we all have the same resources of material or time to pursue this study. Furthermore, how we look at a passage often determines how we will interpret it. All too often, I think people approach the Bible backwards; they have a prior position, and then look for verses that will back that up. In some extreme examples in debating eschatology, I have seen people so convinced of their correctness, that they will totally ignore contrary passages and verses which do not agree with their prior position.

As far as debate, I only offered a reasonable counter to one of the stronger debate arguments you presented first. The OP simply asks to know what position Partial Preterists hold; not how they got there in terms of how they interpret the Bible.

And may God bless you as well, if that is His Will.

[moonglow]

[QUOTE]

I didn't mean to impugn your motive or intent, nor was I accusing you of belonging to the Mormon cult.

However, I was alarmed at the "test" I read into your post for "wisdom." None of us is similarly gifted, and we comes with varying degrees of understanding, intelligence, discernment, and wisdom. Neither do we all have the same resources of material or time to pursue this study. Furthermore, how we look at a passage often determines how we will interpret it. All too often, I think people approach the Bible backwards; they have a position, and then look for verses that will back that up. In some extreme examples in debating eschatology, I have seen people so convinced of their correctness, that they will totally ignore contrary passages and verses which do not agree with position made proir to cross-examination.

As far as debate, I only offered a reasonable counter to one of the stronger debate arguments you first presented. The OP simply asks to know what position Partial Preterists hold; not how they got there in terms of how they interpret the Bible.

I am sorry but I am starting to think you have me confused with someone else...another post. I never used the word, 'test' in my post. Nor did I present any arguments in favor of this view other then post two video's.

This is what I said in my post to the OP:

I am partial..here is one video of a series about Nero being the beast that you might find helpful:


Most of all of course pray and ask God to give you wisdom on this.

That is all I said. I honestly don't know how this is an arguement for you to present a stronger counter one...nor do I say to test anything.

I realize not everyone has the resources available to them which is why I gave the OP the video's..he can watch the whole series if he wants. I have other links he can check out too and I trust those that disagree will present why this doesn't work...let him read them all! Why should I argue against others to protect my view..its just a view point. Its not a salvation issue nor is it written in stone.

The biggest problem us partials have is even getting people to understand it so then they can refute it. Most of the time their refutes are based on misinformation about what we believe in the first place.

When it comes down to it..our end time views really aren't that big of a deal. I know that isn't how most feel though...

At any rate..I am just a single mom..disabled..barely get by every month..I have this computer and their is a wealth of information on the net..plus libraries, book stores. Most resources are free. It does take time to study this issue. I have been in this end times stuff since I was a kid. I used to be pre-trib rapture. All the churches I ever attended had this view. I am really an odd ball around here now having this view point. I don't study this topic all the time...not when there is so much more in the bible. Its just a hit and miss interest.

What I am saying is this. If this 49 year old disabled lady can learn (I also have dyslexia too) and pray for wisdom from God on any topic..and use what we have at hand...and being patience realizing this study will take time...we can all get to learn the different end time views and between us and God come to some conclusion. I am just at the point now where I would rather just share..not debate.

God bless

[Teleiosis]

Well again I will say I'm sorry. Looking at your post with the videos, I thought the "test" was implied since you offered up such a strong argument by means of the two videos, which I watched.

In Eph 1:17 and 18 and again in Col 1:9 I read that Paul prayed that his churches gain wisdom, and I am not saying not to pray for wisdom, but that we should really be wary of believing anything we tell ourselves comes from God. That is why I need fellowship in my study so I can check myself against my brethern who know and understand prophecy. One of the main sources I have for this are my reference books, another is commentary, another is my fellow Church members including my Pastor who specializes in Greek, and yet another are these boards where Christians who are interested in eschatology - especially of different types - can give me constructive criticism on my take on things. I return, I find debate helpful to fully explore a subject like "soon" in Revelation chapters 1 & 22.

Remember: iron sharpens iron.

[moonglow]

Well again I will say I'm sorry. Looking at your post with the videos, I thought the "test" was implied since you offered up such a strong argument by means of the two videos, which I watched.

In Eph 1:17 and 18 and again in Col 1:9 I read that Paul prayed that his churches gain wisdom, and I am not saying not to pray for wisdom, but that we should really be wary of believing anything we tell ourselves comes from God. That is why I need fellowship in my study so I can check myself against my brethern who know and understand prophecy. One of the main sources I have for this are my reference books, another is commentary, another is my fellow Church members including my Pastor who specializes in Greek, and yet another are these boards where Christians who are interested in eschatology - especially of different types - can give me constructive criticism on my take on things. I return, I find debate helpful to fully explore a subject like "soon" in Revelation chapters 1 & 22.

Remember: iron sharpens iron.

I still don't know what 'test' you are talking about. I never said anything about a test. Maybe it was in one of the video's? I haven't watched them for awhile so I don't recall.

I realize iron sharpens iron but around here it usually just sparks a fire..at least on this forum.

I am tired. Have a good evening...night.

God bless

[Servant89]

When it comes to fulfilling prophecies about the Antichrist, there is someone that beats Nero to the punch. When there is someone that fulfills 95% of the prophecies, and Nero only 20 %, that is enough to rule Nero out.

Peace !

[markedward]

Claiming it without providing support for your position doesn't help a discussion, nor does it prove your side. It's tantamount to saying, "My position is right, yours is wrong, and that's that."