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Thread: Gog and Magog

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    Gog and Magog

    Who are these guys?

    I'll post Ezekiel 38 and 39 for reference.

    Ezekiel Chapter 38

    1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying: 2 'Son of man, set thy face toward Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him, 3 and say: Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal; 4 and I will turn thee about, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed most gorgeously, a great company with buckler and shield, all of them handling swords: 5 Persia, Cush, and Put with them, all of them with shield and helmet; 6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah in the uttermost parts of the north, and all his bands; even many peoples with thee. 7 Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou guarded of them. 8 After many days thou shalt be mustered for service, in the latter years thou shalt come against the land that is brought back from the sword, that is gathered out of many peoples, against the mountains of Israel, which have been a continual waste; but it is brought forth out of the peoples, and they dwell safely all of them. 9 And thou shalt ascend, thou shalt come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many peoples with thee. {S} 10 Thus saith the Lord GOD: It shall come to pass in that day, that things shall come into thy mind, and thou shalt devise an evil device; 11 and thou shalt say: I will go up against the land of unwalled villages; I will come upon them that are at quiet, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates; 12 to take the spoil and to take the prey; to turn thy hand against the waste places that are now inhabited, and against the people that are gathered out of the nations, that have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the middle of the earth. 13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the magnates thereof, shall say unto thee: Comest thou to take the spoil? hast thou assembled thy company to take the prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take great spoil? {S} 14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy, and say unto Gog: Thus saith the Lord GOD: In that day when My people Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it? 15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the uttermost parts of the north, thou, and many peoples with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company and a mighty army; 16 and thou shalt come up against My people Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the end of days, and I will bring thee against My land, that the nations may know Me, when I shall be sanctified through thee, O Gog, before their eyes. {S} 17 Thus saith the Lord GOD: Art thou he of whom I spoke in old time by My servants the prophets of Israel, that prophesied in those days for many years, that I would bring thee against them? {S} 18 And it shall come to pass in that day, when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that My fury shall arise up in My nostrils. 19 For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath have I spoken: Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; 20 so that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field and all creeping things that creep upon the ground, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at My presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground. 21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD; every man's sword shall be against his brother. 22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will cause to rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many peoples that are with him, an overflowing shower, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. 23 Thus will I magnify Myself, and sanctify Myself, and I will make Myself known in the eyes of many nations; and they shall know that I am the LORD. {S}


    Ezekiel Chapter 39

    1 And thou, son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say: Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal; 2 and I will turn thee about and lead thee on, and will cause thee to come up from the uttermost parts of the north; and I will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel; 3 and I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand. 4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the peoples that are with thee; I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort and to the beasts of the field, to be devoured. 5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field; for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD. 6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and on them that dwell safely in the isles; and they shall know that I am the LORD. 7 And My holy name will I make known in the midst of My people Israel; neither will I suffer My holy name to be profaned any more; and the nations shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel. 8 Behold, it cometh, and it shall be done, saith the Lord GOD; This is the day whereof I have spoken. 9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall make fires of the weapons and use them as fuel, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the hand-staves, and the spears, and they shall make fires of them seven years; 10 so that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests, for they shall make fires of the weapons; and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD. {S} 11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place fit for burial in Israel, the valley of them that pass through on the east of the sea; and it shall stop them that pass through; and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude; and they shall call it the valley of Hamon-gog. 12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying them, that they may cleanse the land. 13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them, and it shall be to them a renown; in the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD. 14 And they shall set apart men of continual employment, that shall pass through the land to bury with them that pass through those that remain upon the face of the land, to cleanse it; after the end of seven months shall they search. 15 And when they that pass through shall pass through the land, and any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamon-gog. 16 And Hamonah shall also be the name of a city. Thus shall they cleanse the land. {P}
    17 And thou, son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD: Speak unto the birds of every sort, and to every beast of the field: Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to My feast that I do prepare for you, even a great feast, upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh and drink blood. 18 The flesh of the mighty shall ye eat, and the blood of the princes of the earth shall ye drink; rams, lambs, and goats, bullocks, fatlings of Bashan are they all of them. 19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of My feast which I have prepared for you. 20 And ye shall be filled at My table with horses and horsemen, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD. 21 And I will set My glory among the nations, and all the nations shall see My judgment that I have executed, and My hand that I have laid upon them. 22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God, from that day and forward. 23 And the nations shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity, because they broke faith with Me, and I hid My face from them; so I gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and they fell all of them by the sword. 24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions did I unto them; and I hid My face from them. {S} 25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD: Now will I bring back the captivity of Jacob, and have compassion upon the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name. 26 And they shall bear their shame, and all their breach of faith which they have committed against Me, when they shall dwell safely in their land, and none shall make them afraid; 27 when I have brought them back from the peoples, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations. 28 And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, in that I caused them to go into captivity among the nations, and have gathered them unto their own land; and I will leave none of them any more there; 29 neither will I hide My face any more from them; for I have poured out My spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.' {P}
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  2. #2

    Re: Gog and Magog

    Antiochus IV Epiphanes and his armies, perhaps.

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    Re: Gog and Magog

    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    Antiochus IV Epiphanes and his armies, perhaps.
    Oh so this happened already? What about the end verses of chapter 39?

    27 when I have brought them back from the peoples, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations. 28 And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, in that I caused them to go into captivity among the nations, and have gathered them unto their own land; and I will leave none of them any more there; 29 neither will I hide My face any more from them; for I have poured out My spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.'
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  4. #4

    Re: Gog and Magog

    The return of Israel from exile took place in 538 BC or so.

    Ezekiel prophecies the destruction of the First Temple, God's judgment on various nations during the period of the exile, the return of Israel from exile, the antagonism of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, and the plans for a new temple.

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    Re: Gog and Magog

    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    The return of Israel from exile took place in 538 BC or so.
    A majority of the word's Jews remained in exile, including the northern 10 tribes who are still lost to this day. Ezekiel saw a vision of all of the Jews back in Israel.

    Ezekiel prophecies the destruction of the First Temple, God's judgment on various nations during the period of the exile, the return of Israel from exile, the antagonism of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, and the plans for a new temple.
    Ezekiel's temple does not match the dimensions of the second temple.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  6. #6

    Re: Gog and Magog

    A majority of the word's Jews remained in exile,
    Regardless, the return from exile happened, as was prophesied to happen at the end of the 70-year power of Babylon.
    including the northern 10 tribes who are still lost to this day.
    Aside from several references to "all Israel" being extant in post-exile Judah/Judea, several members of the other ten tribes are mentioned by name in the post-exile books (including the New Testament).
    Ezekiel's temple does not match the dimensions of the second temple.
    I didn't say it was the second temple. I didn't even say it was built.

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    Re: Gog and Magog

    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    Regardless, the return from exile happened, as was prophesied to happen at the end of the 70-year power of Babylon.
    A return from exile happened. It wasn't Ezekiel 37, that's for sure.

    Aside from several references to "all Israel" being extant in post-exile Judah/Judea, several members of the other ten tribes are mentioned by name in the post-exile books (including the New Testament).
    Surely God can do better than bringing a few stragglers back?
    I didn't say it was the second temple. I didn't even say it was built.
    Will it be?

    We're going to get this bumped to "contro" if we carry on like this
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Gog and Magog

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    A majority of the word's Jews remained in exile, including the northern 10 tribes who are still lost to this day. Ezekiel saw a vision of all of the Jews back in Israel.
    There northern 10 tribes are not still lost today. That's a myth Fenris.
    Many of the people from the northern tribes were assimilated into the Assyrian kingdom, however, not all of them completely.

    The OT and NT both tell us indirectly and directly with (references to the 12 tribes in Israel) and to members from each tribe (all 11 are mentioned by name except Reuben) ... get this ... were living within the land of Israel either DURING the Assyrian/Babylonian Captivities or AFTER the return from Exile.

    If the 10 tribes had truly been lost, then there would not have been any descendents from those tribes mentioned throughout the OT and NT after the Captivity(ies). But there were.

    As for Ezekiel's temple not matching the dimensions of Zerubabbel's temple, it's because they didn't remain faithful...not even in their following the guidelines of the blueprint given by Ezekiel. Luckily however for the Jews, the final and true temple made without hands was errected and made available to all the house of Israel and their children circa 0-33 A.D.

  9. #9

    Re: Gog and Magog

    I agree with you Fenris, that Ezekiel 37 did not happen in its entirety yet, otherwise God woefully reneged on His promises to Israel.

    And like you, I agree many Jews remained in the Diaspora, and the 10 tribes have never returned to the land of Israel. I often fail to see why most biblical scholars fail to differentiate between the two houses of Israel and Judah just like there was a North and South in America. It is not good history, nor exegesis to apply promises directed at the Rebels to the Yankees so-to-speak, either. Rebel history is not Yankee history. The 10 tribes lost to history is a historical fact that no serious historian, Jewish or otherwise denies.

    Much of biblical theology is based on this fact, and the only issue is there is a disagreement as to where they ended up. I have my beliefs, but I don't mention them much except to leave clues for those that like to dig. But it's all there in the bible, at least I believe it. Yeah, Jewish Scholar Yair Davidy is a buddy of mine.

    Regardless, they will all end up together one day back in the land of Israel during the coming and reign of Messiah. Stay tuned.
    Yes, I already know about I Timothy 1:4 and Titus 3:9.
    But these are endless and foolish genealogies, not God-given bible genealogies.

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    Re: Gog and Magog

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    There northern 10 tribes are not still lost today. That's a myth Fenris.
    It's a myth historians seem to agree with.


    The OT and NT both tell us indirectly and directly with (references to the 12 tribes in Israel) and to members from each tribe (all 11 are mentioned by name except Reuben) ... get this ... were living within the land of Israel either DURING the Assyrian/Babylonian Captivities or AFTER the return from Exile.
    As I said above, I'm pretty sure that God could do better than bringing back a few stragglers. Pretty sure.


    As for Ezekiel's temple not matching the dimensions of Zerubabbel's temple, it's because they didn't remain faithful...not even in their following the guidelines of the blueprint given by Ezekiel.
    They couldn't follow the blueprint, Ezekiel's temple is much larger than the temple mount.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Gog and Magog

    Quote Originally Posted by genealogist View Post
    Regardless, they will all end up together one day back in the land of Israel during the coming and reign of Messiah. Stay tuned.
    Glad I found someone who agrees with me...

    So who is Gog and Magog?
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Gog and Magog

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post

    Surely God can do better than bringing a few stragglers back?
    Ask Noah about that one.

    Or maybe Lot.

    God brought back faithful remnants from all the 12 tribes, and placed them back in their ancestrial lands. Never was there a promise to bring back the unbelievers who rejected God.

    Unfortunately, even in this great act of mercy following the Assyrian/Babylonian captivity return, once the remants of the 12 tribes were restored, many again fell back into idolatry soon thereafter. Luckily, however, a remnant remained faithful, and continues to this day and forevermore to trust and follow the Lord! (As told by Isaiah and Hosea and Paul)


    Isaiah 10:21 "The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God. For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness."

    Hosea 1:10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head"

    Romans 9:25 "As he saith also in Hosea, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Isaiah also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth."


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    Re: Gog and Magog

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    It's a myth historians seem to agree with.
    I guess some historians forgot to consult the Bible, which shows members of all the 10 northern tribes represented in the Land of Israel during and following the Assyrian/Babylonian captivity. All 12 are mentioned specificially by name, and also indirectly mentioned by references to the 12 tribes going to Jerusalem at the dedication of Zerubabbel's temple.

    Quote Originally Posted by fenris
    As I said above, I'm pretty sure that God could do better than bringing back a few stragglers. Pretty sure.
    Yes you said it, but it didn't help the discussion. Throughout the OT God solely used 'stranglers'....the remnant was almost always a small group of faithful followers.

    God could have had Noah build a much larger boat to accommodate many more than 8 people as well....had there been more than 8 faithful people at that time.....but chose stranglers.

    God could have delivered all the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah....but chose stranglers.

    God could have delivered all the 2 year old children and their families from Herod's butchery.......but chose stranglers.




    Quote Originally Posted by fenris
    They couldn't follow the blueprint, Ezekiel's temple is much larger than the temple mount.
    You are right....they didn't follow the blueprint at all. And when the true and final fulfillment of the temple came, many of them rejected it too.

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    Re: Gog and Magog

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Ask Noah about that one.

    Or maybe Lot.
    Not a good example. God had no covenant with the people of Noah's time or the people of Sodom. On the other hand, God made specific promises to the Jews- amongst them a return from exile at some future date.

    God brought back faithful remnants from all the 12 tribes, and placed them back in their ancestrial lands. Never was there a promise to bring back the unbelievers who rejected God.
    Isaiah 60:21: Your people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever

    Unfortunately, even in this great act of mercy following the Assyrian/Babylonian captivity return, once the remants of the 12 tribes were restored, many again fell back into idolatry soon thereafter.
    During the second temple era idolatry was not nearly as prevelant as the first.


    [I][COLOR="red"]Isaiah 10:21 "The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God. For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness."
    Shrug. The next verse says " For if your people Israel shall be like the sand of the sea, the remnant of them that shall return, shall wash away with righteousness the decreed destruction."

    Hosea 1:10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head"
    My point exactly.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Gog and Magog

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    I guess some historians forgot to consult the Bible, which shows members of all the 10 northern tribes represented in the Land of Israel during and following the Assyrian/Babylonian captivity. All 12 are mentioned specificially by name, and also indirectly mentioned by references to the 12 tribes going to Jerusalem at the dedication of Zerubabbel's temple.
    As I said, presumably God could do better than bringing back a few.



    Yes you said it, but it didn't help the discussion. Throughout the OT God solely used 'stranglers'....the remnant was almost always a small group of faithful followers.

    God could have had Noah build a much larger boat to accommodate many more than 8 people as well....had there been more than 8 faithful people at that time.....but chose stranglers.

    God could have delivered all the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah....but chose stranglers.

    God could have delivered all the 2 year old children and their families from Herod's butchery.......but chose stranglers.
    I said "stragglers", not sure what "stranglers" are. In any case, God's promises are to an entire people- the good and the bad.





    You are right....they didn't follow the blueprint at all.
    They couldn't, they weren't good enough engineers to expand the temple mount to the prophesized size. That hardly counts as being unfaithful.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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