Do your end times beliefs align with those of your denomination?

[teddyv]

What denomination is that, if you don't mind my asking?

Christian Reformed Church.

[Amos_with_goats]

Have your differing views caused you to have to break fellowship?

been asked to step down from a ministry? Been a deciding factor in leaving an assembly?

How was that handled, and how might it have been handled better? (could it have been>?)

[kay-gee]

My fellows and I are pretty much in agreement.

In the end when all is said and done...........GOD WINS!!!

all the best...

[amazzin]

...... Denominations basically lay down the law for what the local churches may teach without crossing the line.

Not entirely true. The local church, in most cases, is autonomous. The denominational affiliations are for credentialing and oversight in the event of a schism

[markedward]

The local assembly is autonomous in the sense of the local teacher putting together his own sermons, series, messages, etc. But according to "the rules", his there are a number of secondary issues he is not allowed to deviate from if he is to remain as a teacher in that denomination. For example, if you want to officially be a teacher for the Assembly of God denomination and you plan on teaching about eschatology, you must teach the pretribulational rapture and premillennial Second Coming. That's the rule; there's no freedom of "autonomous" study when it comes to that secondary issue, and hence, that drastically limits just how "autonomous" the local assembly is allowed to be in the A/G. How strictly that rule is actually enforced is debatable in the case of deviations, but the rule is laid down regardless. The A/G (and many other denominations) are like this with secondary issues.

[moonglow]

Have your differing views caused you to have to break fellowship?

been asked to step down from a ministry? Been a deciding factor in leaving an assembly?

How was that handled, and how might it have been handled better? (could it have been>?)

The current church I am in hasn't said a word about their end time views, which I am greatly relieved about actually. I think too many over focus on it when its not a salvation issue at all. My whole life every church I have even attended had to have some viewpoint on this...all have been pre-trib rapture too which I used to believe also...no longer. When I came to a different belief it didn't bother me they had a different viewpoint at all actually.

Have your differing views caused you to have to break fellowship? No..even though in my last church the pastor knowing what my viewpoints were in a round about why basically said anyone who believes anything but pre-trib rapture is a heretic.

been asked to step down from a ministry? I have never been in a ministry.

Been a deciding factor in leaving an assembly? Nope.

How was that handled, and how might it have been handled better? (could it have been>? Nothing needs to be handled..its not that big of a deal. At least not to me anyway. Edited to add. We left that church not for these reasons...there were many problem and my son was getting where he hated church. Plus I was being excluded from things too..I think because I am a divorced single parent.

In our current church I have no idea what their views are or the pastor's..which frankly, is fine with me.

God bless

[Nihil Obstat]

I wonder how many here may find their beliefs about the end times do not align with what they may hear from the pulpit, or their denom's official position?

My eschatology has differed with the church I attend exponentially over the past few years. I was led to Jesus in the church's prayer room five years ago. Before I was saved I was intrigued over the second half of Daniel and all of Revelation, but mostly due to the weird paintings I had seen depicting the visions described therein. So, as an unbeliever, I studied the differing views that the church holds to, and came to the conclusion that Preterism was clearly the correct one. But the church I was saved in, and soon afterward attended, is futurist. This church also had its own seminary, which I graduated from last semester. I became a futurist after being saved, and was very zealous over the issue, as this church's main reason for existing is, essentially (I've been told), to pray for Israel's salvation in order to speed the return of Jesus. But over time, I gradually began to question more and more what I was being taught there. It started with little things, but by my final semester I no longer held to their claim that Revelation was about God raising up an end-time Moses (the church) to deliver God's exiled children Israel from an end-time Pharaoh (the Antichrist). Instead, I saw the judgments within Revelation as being sent against Israel for her adultery, and cutting her off from the promises of God. It wasn't long after that switch that I realized that Israel was already no longer the covenant people of God, and that therefore Revelation could not refer primarily of future things: it had to be speaking of things past. So after five years of diligent study, my eschatology came full circle, and I've returned to Preterism, but now with much more knowledge. We still attend the church, and have no plans of leaving (though I will be furthering my education locally elsewhere, hopefully beginning in January).

How much of an issue is this for you?

At first it was a major issue, and I had a very difficult time staying seated during Sunday service, as most all of the messages here concern eschatology and Israelology (if that's a word). But through prayer, and talking it through with my family and friends, I'm now at peace with our differences. (I'll explain more below.)

How much of an issue do you believe it ought to be?

Well, considering a main focus of our church is eschatology, I'll probably answer this question differently than most. Our church charges its members and visitors to test everything they say against Scripture, which I appreciate. But, after four years of schooling there, the truth is that they are not fair toward other view points, and do not hold high the laws of hermeneutics (what I mean is, they don't teach people how to test everything). Once in a class on Israel, I approached the teacher privately about a concern I had with their insistence that Ezekiel's temple was still a future expectation, though it necessitated sacrifices for sin and circumcision in order to be accepted by Yahweh. The teacher literally shut my Bible and showed me the door. Another example was once in a class on Revelation, another student suggested that maybe the stars wouldn't literally fall, and that maybe the sun and moon wouldn't literally diminish in light, because that's never what that means in the OT. The teacher peppered him with questions but wouldn't let him finish his sentences, and this lasted over ten minutes. I finally stood up and interrupted the teacher, and said that I thought he was being unfair in his response, and that I thought the student had a valid point. He then took me in his office, stood up to his full height, puffed out his chest, crossed his arms, and told me that this was his class and he could disciple individual students the way he felt was best for them. One final example: I used to do end-time Q & A for those who were coming on staff at the church, and some of my fellow students found out about this, and wanted me to do a Q & A with them. The three leaders that were overseeing me and my fellow students encouraged this, until they found out that I disagreed with some of their teachings (which at the time were very minor). They then required that I be monitored during the Q & A, during which they told me which questions I could answer, and then they told me that I couldn't lead a Q & A study group at their end of the year conference, and that I could no longer do Q & A for their incoming staff members.

So you can start to see why I needed to pray and talk over all this in order to find peace with staying here. Jesus has given me that peace.

Have your differing views caused you to have to break fellowship?

No. The Lord called us here very clearly, and has made it clear that we are to stay. Though He has led me to different end-times beliefs, He has also given me a peace that surpasses the understanding of the world.

Been asked to step down from a ministry?

This was the other big reason that I needed the counseling of the Lord and Spirit-filled people around me. From the beginning I felt that the Lord was telling me that I would be a teacher at this seminary, and had often received prophetic words from complete strangers saying the same thing. And the feedback when I did teach was always very positive. Once when speaking an elderly Korean woman who knew no English told me through her son that she understood everything I had said without the aid of interpretation! But after switching from futurist to preterist, and from premil to amil, I was told by more than one leader that they could no longer have me as a teacher at their school. But I still have the desire to teach there. Because more than them being my 'mother' church, their message on intimacy and their ability to rally and send out the youth with a passion to love Jesus is, in my experience, unsurpassed. I have never seen such a large group of people from all over the world gather into one location and have such a capacity to love the church and seek after the lost. And their youth program as well is the best I've seen, and having two children seals the deal - I love my girls more than I want to have a preacher who agrees with my eschatology. Easy decision.

Been a deciding factor in leaving an assembly?

No. Only if the Lord directs us elsewhere, though my heart will always be for this church.

How was that handled, and how might it have been handled better?

It was handled well by the leadership, but my own heart did not handle it well. Sometimes I still get upset, but that's only if I work myself up. Though it was all unintentional, I've forgiven those who hurt me (and to those I haven't seen, I have the ability to forgive should we meet), and hold nothing against them. We're all fragile; we're all fickle; we're all fearful at times. Often when challenged on something we hold dear, we react in fear and anger. And it's too easy to chalk it up to being human, but really, such a reaction isn't human, but inhuman, or perhaps more accurately put, ex-human. True humanity isn't those who are in fallen Adam, but those who are in the risen Christ.

So, in conclusion, we all talk like 'so long as Jesus is the main focus, end-times is secondary', but the reality is that if we're going to have Jesus as our main focus, then we need to focus on what Jesus focused on, and He focused a whole lot on eschatology. Can we pit one against the other? I don't think so. I love Jesus, and so I love eschatology, and I love His church. Though people are more important than doctrine, doctrine directs our hearts and minds concerning our relationship with people. The interesting thing about my situation is that though I disagree with my church over interpretation, when it comes to application we are of one mind. They have the freedom to say who can and who cannot teach at their school, and I have been given the freedom to love them though they have freely chosen to say no to me. And I find this to be, in the midst of hard times, a glorious thing indeed. Praise God!

- a stronger than he -

[Ta-An]

DO you know if your Church lists it's position in it's 'statement of beliefs'?

No, they don't preach on it

[Beckrl]

I wonder how many here may find their beliefs about the end times do not align with what they may hear from the pulpit, or their denom's official position?

Yes, I'm one that my end time belief is different than that of my non-demo church. Where they do have a offical position that of Pretri Primill Rapture.

How much of an issue is this for you?

While I'll have to say, most ministers now will not make to much mention of it in the pulpit, but when those do I tend to view the meat of what he has to say, and place it in the correct context. I make not issue with it.

How much of an issue do you believe it ought to be?

It's not of savlation, so there shouldn't be one, but I can see where it could become an issue with a church of different views.

[percho]

I think some excellent points have been brought up, i.e. that many churches do not teach much about end times, and thus miss one of the main points of the bible.

My eschatology does not agree with my denom, at least the one they broke away from as there is typical we've sinned so "let's-get-saved-so-that-we-die-and-go-to-heaven" theology and everything else goes on the same as if that's all there is to the future.

Those into eschatology, including Jewish eschatology that I read, believe in some sort of trial at the end of days, a coming of Messiah for a Kingdom, and the regathering of Israel. The bible actually makes it clear that we are not saved to enjoy a heavenly bliss with Messiah, per se, but to rule and reign just like He will, and Psalm 2 is applicable to Messiah's brethren (chosen ones) as well.

The thing that even many "rapturist-tribulation-second coming of Christ- white throne judgment" evangelicals (where I originally came from) that you hear preach on TV today miss is the vital importance of Israel in the scheme of things. That's where I lay a heavier emphasis on eschatology.

Most do not realize that the bible is a book about Israel, and after the gospels but before Revelation is parenthetical to the "church age" of a special called-out people only destined to rule and reign with Christ if I may sound a little Bullingerish. The rest is addressed primarily to Israel.

For a person to miss the subject matter (Israel) of the bible is about the same as missing the point of a cookbook regarding foods as one focuses their attention to the plates that the food is served on instead. But that's what's happening. Churches everywhere are getting excited about the pretty plates in the cookbook.

A very good post. a couple of statement and a couple of questions. Mine dosen't agree either. Somehow it seems to me that salvation and end time are close to the same thing. Question concerning para. 2 Does the bible teach dying and going to heaven or being born into the kingdom of God or are these the same? Next ? para. 5 If the called out ones are those that have the firstfruits of the Spirit begining on Pentecost the feast of firstfruits, a feast given to Israel pointing to this very event, why was it given to Israel if it did not comcern Israel?

[WELL]

I wonder how many here may find their beliefs about the end times do not align with what they may hear from the pulpit, or their denom's official position?

How much of an issue is this for you?

How much of an issue do you believe it ought to be?

Yes to Q1, very important to Q2, it's good to know what God wants from us practically-Q3.
I wonder about views that make people afraid, and that encourage people to believe that it's not grace alone that saves, which come from the view of-you will be saved if you don 't take the mark of the beast.