The 70th week: Fulfilled, unfulfilled?

[DurbanDude]

Why would you add "not necessarily at the same time"? It says "the hour" is coming when "all" that are in the graves hear His voice, the good to everlasting life, the evil to damnation. How can this be different times of resurrection since "all" hear His voice for Judgment? Are there any passages that indicate Judgment Day comes more than once?

Yes, there are clearly two different judgments. One judgment occurs on earth at the second coming (Jesus comes to judge), verses like Joel 3, Rev 19, when all the armies of the world are gathered and destroyed and the nations are judged with wrath by Christ on this earth. This happens to the living nations on earth.

Then there are verses like Rev 20, when the deeds of the wicked are judged and they are thrown into the lake of fire, this judgement occurs AFTER the earth has passed away, and CANNOT be reconciled with the other judgment that occurs while the earth exists. This judgment occurs to those dead who are resurrected to be judged, the resurrection of the unrighteous dead.

As per the "hour" of John5:28 , the earlier hour in John 5:25 is a figurative hour covering some thousands of years. It always amazes me that some want to make the hour of verse 28 so very literal when John obviously has no objection to using the word in such a figurative manner only 3 verses earlier.

[Raybob]

lol, now you are missing my point! I started my post saying your reading "does not fit for me" and after I made my point, you reply "I agree Dude", so we are definitely miscommunicating somewhere here.

No, it is dead souls that take part in the Jesus' resurrection, and come alive...

So they must not be Christians. No Christian's soul will ever die.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(Mat 10:28)

[DurbanDude]

So they must not be Christians. No Christian's soul will ever die.

Sorry Raybob, I don't really understand your point here. To me, before we have salvation our souls are dead. Then we become saved, and our souls live.

If the bible is talking about living souls "coming alive", this cannot therefore be referring to the salvation experience, because then it should be referring to dead souls coming alive, yet Rev 20 is referring to living souls in the past tense, who then come alive in the present tense. Rev 20 therefore has to be referring to the physical resurrection and not salvation.

[Raybob]

Sorry Raybob, I don't really understand your point here. To me, before we have salvation our souls are dead. Then we become saved, and our souls live.

If the bible is talking about living souls "coming alive", this cannot therefore be referring to the salvation experience, because then it should be referring to dead souls coming alive, yet Rev 20 is referring to living souls in the past tense, who then come alive in the present tense. Rev 20 therefore has to be referring to the physical resurrection and not salvation.

You said:

No, it is dead souls that take part in the Jesus' resurrection, and come alive...

These cannot be Christains. Christian souls are alive. Dead souls don't live and reign with Jesus, dead souls are headed for the lake of fire at the second resurrection.

[DurbanDude]

You said:

These cannot be Christains. Christian souls are alive. Dead souls don't live and reign with Jesus, dead souls are headed for the lake of fire at the second resurrection.

I still don't understand your point. I am saying that dead souls , when they partake of Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, become alive. I agree that they are not Christians when they are dead souls. My soul was dead before I became a Christian. This is not referring to the general resurrection of the saints, but to Jesus' resurrection. Living souls, those who are saved Christians, will then partake of the general resurrection at the second coming.

I really don't understand what you think I said.

[John146]

John 5:28-29 does not say it will happen all at once. It only says all who are in the graves will hear His voice. It is like saying all will finish the race. Yes everyone will finish the race but in their own order (1 cor 15)..... which is at different times.

Why didn't Jesus say "the times are coming" when all who are in the graves would be raised then? Instead, He said "the time is coming" when all who are in the graves will be raised.

Exactly so that means all will not be resurrected at the same time. Believers and unbelievers occur at different times as Revelation 20 states.

As you think Revelation 20 states. Yet you can't reconcile that with other passages, such as Daniel 12:2, Acts 24:15 and John 5:28-29, which do not give any indication of a significant period of time between the resurrection of believers and unbelievers.

Is it an hour according to our English understanding.... meaning 60 minutes. No don't think so.

You could just as well say in this verse "for the time is comming....".

Remember again that 1 Cor 15 says "each in his own order".

Yes, but what is the order that Paul gives us? It's not as if he was saying that one person is raised at this time and then another at another time and then another at yet another time and so on. We know that all believers will be raised at the same time, which is at His coming (1 Cor 15:23) which will occur at the sound of the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:51-52). So, what is the order that Paul was referring to?

1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Keeping in mind that the order Paul is talking about is the order of resurrections unto bodily immortality. He pointed out that Christ's resurrection was the first in order of resurrections unto bodily immortality. Who is next in order? Those who are His at His coming. There's the order. How do you reconcile this with your view that believers will be resurrected at different times?

[John146]

Hope we are not derailing to far:

Though his works are judged, the believer (himself) in Christ, does not come into judgment for "resurrection of life".
His judgment (the believer) is based on trusting in what Jesus Christ has done, not what we have done (good or bad)

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, The one who hears My Word, and believes the One who has sent Me, has everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

This judgment (GWT) is on those who have not put their trust in Christ.
They are judged by their works good or bad. Those who are under the law, will be judged by the law. Those who are not under the law, will be judged without the law, but according to the conscience.

John 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs will hear His voice.
John 5:29 And they will come out, the ones having done good into a resurrection of life; and the ones having practiced evil into a resurrection of judgment.

Not sure what your point is here. Are you trying to say you don't believe that those who are resurrected unto life are those who have put their trust in Christ? If so, I couldn't disagree more. Only those who have put their trust in Christ will be resurrected unto eternal life.

[John146]

lol, sorry no. I have always agreed that we take part in Jesus' resurrection, but your reading of Rev 20 does not fit for me.

20:4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Who takes part in the first resurrection? ALIVE SOULS of those who have died. These souls have already experienced the partaking of salvation through Christ, yet they are the ones who "live and reign" for 1000 years. The verse goes from past tense (were beheaded, had not worshipped) to present tense, indicating that the living and reigning occurs to the living souls after John sees the beheaded souls, not at the point of beheading or before.

It doesn't say that one must be physically dead in order to have part in the first resurrection. John is seeing those who have died and already had part in the first resurrection but that doesn't mean they didn't have part in it until they died. It says those who have part in the first resurrection "shall be priests of God and of Christ". What does John say here:

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Looks to me that believers had already been made "priests of God and of Christ" at the time John wrote the book. Therefore, it seems to me that believers were already having part in the first resurrection even then. And they were because Christ's resurrection is the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Rev 1:5).

[John146]

As others have already pointed out 3 flaws here.

It says hear is voice, it does not say Jesus only speaks one time. Just based upon the sentence structure, how it is worded, it is possible to say Jesus either speaks more than one time (or the groups hear at different times, but too many problems going that direction).

Nor does saying this mean there is more than one judgment day, as the saints do not find out that they are saints before a throne at the end. The dead in Christ are with Him now (Php 1:23) and so already know, and the believers that remain with be caught up in the sky with Him (1 Thess 4:17) and know as well.

As has already been pointed out "an hour" designates a period. It does not mean everything happens at the same moment, but rather within the same period.

Even if it was referring to a time period wouldn't you think that the thing that was said to occur during that time period would occur throughout that time period rather than once at the beginning and once at the end of it without it happening at all in between? Yet, that's how you see the hour coming when all will be raised. You say believers will all be raised when the hour first arrives, then a thousand years goes by without anyone being raised and then the unbelievers are raised. I don't see how the ones raised after a thousand years could be seen as being raised in the same hour as the ones raised a thousand years before. Seems like quite a stretch of the term "hour". Are you aware of any other times in scripture where that term is used in that way? If the resurrections were going to be far apart in time I don't know why Jesus would refer to only one time that was coming. It certainly doesn't give the impression that some would be raised at one moment and the rest would be raised at a much later time.

Answered above. But a quick point based upon how you have phrased it.

An hour (time) is coming. That period can be broken into minutes and seconds (or a lot of other things for a time). Many things can happen in an hour (time) and be related by the singular. If you go to 2 Pet 3:8 it relates this same truth. Which happens to be about the day of judgment, which makes that scripture very, very interesting.

You lost me here. I don't see how 2 Peter 3:8 can be related to this issue at all. All 2 Peter 3:8 shows is that time doesn't matter to God. One day is no different than a thousand years to Him. I don't see how that would have anything to do with John 5:28-29.

Yes this statement is literally true: There is no verse which sates we reign with Christ now, only in the future.

If the verse you gave is true (as I said it is in one strand, others have kingdom) we are kings.

You can be a king and not reign. Being a king is based upon heredity. Reigning is an action.

So yes, that statement is 100% accurate.

If we're in Christ we do take action. Not as ruling dictators, as you understand reigning, but as His servants spreading the gospel and loving others.

with ...

Because the two different types of verses show something. Christ reigns now in one sense, and does not in another. He reigns fully in heaven, he reigns in a different way on earth. See the difference?

Of course. Everyone knows the difference. But the question is why you insist that Rev 20:6 is speaking of reigning in an earthly dictator sense rather than in a spiritual sense.

I wouldn't be able to say that (Rev 20:8) and they would still be in the flesh (Rom 8:8). So they wouldn't, but we would. And then at the end of that period, everything would (new heavens and earth). Its a reference point showing how God reigns in heaven is different than how God reigns on earth. God's will cannot reign like in heaven until Jesus hands over everything to the Father which will not happen until Jesus has all under His feet (1 Cor 15:24-28).

He will have all under His feet at His coming because that is when the end comes (1 Cor 15:23-24) and when death will be defeated (1 Cor 15:26,54).

Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever. Rev 11:15

... saying. We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. Rev 11:17

Notice verse 18: And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged ...

All after the seventh trumpet, when the earth becomes the kingdom of God and He begins to reign upon it. That does not fit with "it will always be a spiritual kingdom". Although I agree, right now it is just that. Remember, just as the apostles saw Jesus leave the earth He will return in the same way (Acts 1:11).

I think you're missing something here. Look at Rev 11:15-18 again. When will it be the time for the dead to be judged? At the time that the seventh trumpet sounds, right? And when are the dead judged in relation to the thousand years? After (see Rev 20:11-15). This shows that the seventh trumpet sounds after the thousand years are over, not before they begin.

A scripture that may mean king or may mean kingdom. That doesn't refer to reigning at all. And for the reigning part you are arguing from silence, because there is no scripture that says it. And there is no logical necessity, no deduction from being a king to reigning.

If I'm arguing from silence then so are you. We'll just have to agree to disagree on what type of reigning Rev 20:6 is referring to.

Not sure where you got this.

From the fact that you continually act as if our reign with Christ must be an earthly one where we directly rule over people. So, it's more like a dictatorship than a case of having spiritual authority in Christ and reigning in that sense.

But I will just point out, its God's way and no other. Any other way is thrown into the second death, Jesus is coming back to save what is His and will crush the rest.

I agree that Jesus is coming back to save what is His and crush the rest. Since all who are His will be caught up to Him and will have immortal bodies and all the rest will be killed then what mortals would be left to populate a supposed millennial earthly kingdom? Tell me, who among those who are alive on the day Christ returns and don't know God and don't believe in Christ will survive?

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

But that is all I will point out, because I am hoping I misunderstood what you said here.

What did you mean by this?

[John146]

Yes, there are clearly two different judgments. One judgment occurs on earth at the second coming (Jesus comes to judge), verses like Joel 3, Rev 19, when all the armies of the world are gathered and destroyed and the nations are judged with wrath by Christ on this earth. This happens to the living nations on earth.

Then there are verses like Rev 20, when the deeds of the wicked are judged and they are thrown into the lake of fire, this judgement occurs AFTER the earth has passed away, and CANNOT be reconciled with the other judgment that occurs while the earth exists. This judgment occurs to those dead who are resurrected to be judged, the resurrection of the unrighteous dead.

But Matthew 25:31-46 shows that the righteous stand before the throne at the same time as the unrighteous at the judgment when the unrighteous are cast into the lake of fire. But for some reason you act as if only the unrighteous are present before the throne at that judgment.

[RogerW]

As others have already pointed out 3 flaws here.

It says hear is voice, it does not say Jesus only speaks one time. Just based upon the sentence structure, how it is worded, it is possible to say Jesus either speaks more than one time (or the groups hear at different times, but too many problems going that direction).

BL, neither would I say Jesus speaks only once! Many hear His voice NOW, or throughout the whole NC, Kingdom age. As a result they are made alive. But that is not the case with those who are in the graves! What the passage very clearly says is that a specific time ["the hour"] is coming when "all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." You acknowledge there is only one Judgment Day, so how can you argue those in the grave, being bodily raised for Judgment will hear His voice at different times? The raising of the dead from the graves for the Judgment is after earth and heaven have fled away, so what other time can there be that those in the graves hear His voice?

Re*20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Re*20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Re*20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Re*20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Re*20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

As has already been pointed out "an hour" designates a period. It does not mean everything happens at the same moment, but rather within the same period.

An hour (time) is coming. That period can be broken into minutes and seconds (or a lot of other things for a time). Many things can happen in an hour (time) and be related by the singular. If you go to 2 Pet 3:8 it relates this same truth. Which happens to be about the day of judgment, which makes that scripture very, very interesting.

But it is not speaking of just any old hour, it is very specifically speaking of "the hour...when all that are in the graves shall hear His voice". If it were not speaking specifically of the time of the bodily resurrection I would agree it could mean a period rather than specific time. But we can't take the hour that is coming and separate it from what will take place. And since you agree there is only one Judgment Day, you should also agree that there is only one very specific time, at the end of this age when Christ calls all humanity from the graves for Judgment.

[DurbanDude]

It doesn't say that one must be physically dead in order to have part in the first resurrection. John is seeing those who have died and already had part in the first resurrection but that doesn't mean they didn't have part in it until they died. It says those who have part in the first resurrection "shall be priests of God and of Christ". What does John say here:

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Looks to me that believers had already been made "priests of God and of Christ" at the time John wrote the book. Therefore, it seems to me that believers were already having part in the first resurrection even then. And they were because Christ's resurrection is the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Rev 1:5).

I am agreeing with most of what you say, except for a matter of semantics. I believe the phrase "first resurrection" is referring to the first general resurrection, this phrase does not refer to Jesus' resurrection. We can see this in context of rev 20 because this first resurrection occurs after the death of Christians, not before or at their death. This can be seen by the past tense of the death of the believers, and the subsequent present tense of the beginning of the 1000 year period.The period when they "live and reign" is subsequent to the period when they become christians and become martyred.

Thus we have a sequence of events, firstly dead souls become christians and become spiritually live and spiritually reign.

Then Christians receive their eternal bodies and become physically alive for ever and physically reign with Christ forever.

I believe the context of Rev 20 is referring to these physical aspects, not the earlier spiritual coming alive and reigning, because the TENSES make any other reading impossible.

[Raybob]

I am agreeing with most of what you say, except for a matter of semantics. I believe the phrase "first resurrection" is referring to the first general resurrection, this phrase does not refer to Jesus' resurrection. We can see this in context of rev 20 because this first resurrection occurs after the death of Christians, not before or at their death. This can be seen by the past tense of the death of the believers, and the subsequent present tense of the beginning of the 1000 year period.The period when they "live and reign" is subsequent to the period when they become christians and become martyred.

Thus we have a sequence of events, firstly dead souls become christians and become spiritually live and spiritually reign...

But that is the opposite of the sequence of what John sees in the bible. John sees the souls reigning first, then "and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded.
1.) Souls on 'thrones'
2.) souls of beheaded.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(Rev 20:4)

He is seeing 'all' the souls that reigned with Christ from the cross until the second coming. Those include the ones beheaded. Certainly you don't believe that only souls of beheaded saints are there and not all the other souls John sees.

Raybob

[Caleb]

Not sure what your point is here. Are you trying to say you don't believe that those who are resurrected unto life are those who have put their trust in Christ? If so, I couldn't disagree more. Only those who have put their trust in Christ will be resurrected unto eternal life.

At the GWT, Yep!

Those who have not put their trust in Christ, will have to face the judgment at the GWT, and they shall be judged according to their own works, good or bad.

[John146]

At the GWT, Yep!

Those who have not put their trust in Christ, will have to face the judgment at the GWT, and they shall be judged according to their own works, good or bad.

Those who have put their trust in Christ will be judged/rewarded according to their works as well. Read Matthew 25:31-46 and look at these:

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Matt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.