The 70th week: Fulfilled, unfulfilled?

[thedee]

Why didn't Jesus say "the times are coming" when all who are in the graves would be raised then? Instead, He said "the time is coming" when all who are in the graves will be raised.

Your argument on this one verse is not convincing. Again, if you read the entire book you will see the resurrections occur at different times.... (each in his own order 1 Cor 15) (Rev 20).

As you think Revelation 20 states. Yet you can't reconcile that with other passages, such as Daniel 12:2, Acts 24:15 and John 5:28-29, which do not give any indication of a significant period of time between the resurrection of believers and unbelievers.

Daniel 12:2 does not say it will happen all in the same day or at once neither does Acts 24:15. So your point here is not profiting.

which will occur at the sound of the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:51-52)

And what is this "last trumpet"?

There's the order. How do you reconcile this with your view that believers will be resurrected at different times?

First off we are talking unbelievers being resurrected at a different time than believers.... right?

[RogerW]

Your argument on this one verse is not convincing. Again, if you read the entire book you will see the resurrections occur at different times.... (each in his own order 1 Cor 15) (Rev 20).

Yes, 1Co 15 shows us the spiritual resurrection comes before the bodily resurrection when He comes again. We are born a natural body and sown in the same natural body. But when the natural body is sown it is raised a spiritual body. How can that be? If it is raised a spiritual body it is because the spirit within man was already spiritually resurrected in Christ. IOW our body could not be spiritually raised when physically sown natural unless he/she had already been made alive in Christ; i.e. have partaken in His resurrection from the dead; become part of the first resurrection.

[John146]

I am agreeing with most of what you say, except for a matter of semantics. I believe the phrase "first resurrection" is referring to the first general resurrection, this phrase does not refer to Jesus' resurrection.

The phrase "first resurrection" is translated from the Greek "protos anastasis". The only other time we see that phrase in scripture is here:

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

So, either Christ's resurrection was the "protos anastasis" or there is more than one "protos anastasis". I don't believe there is more than one.

We can see this in context of rev 20 because this first resurrection occurs after the death of Christians, not before or at their death.

That is your assumption but it says those who have part in the first resurrection are priests of God and of Christ and as I showed from Rev 1:5-6 John included himself among those who were made priests of God and of Christ. So, it seems to me that John considered himself to have had had part in the first resurrection and he did since he spiritually had part in Christ's resurrection.

This can be seen by the past tense of the death of the believers, and the subsequent present tense of the beginning of the 1000 year period.The period when they "live and reign" is subsequent to the period when they become christians and become martyred.

Thus we have a sequence of events, firstly dead souls become christians and become spiritually live and spiritually reign.

Then Christians receive their eternal bodies and become physically alive for ever and physically reign with Christ forever.

I believe the context of Rev 20 is referring to these physical aspects, not the earlier spiritual coming alive and reigning, because the TENSES make any other reading impossible.

That's your opinion, but it's not nearly as convincing as you seem to think it is. Does your method of interpretation allow for anyone to yet be a priest of God and of Christ? Do you believe we are priests of God and of Christ now? Is it not yet the case that the second death has no power over us who are in Christ or do you think that is only a future reality? I don't know about you, but I don't believe the second death has any power over us even now. I don't believe we have to die and wait until we're physically resurrected in order to be able to then say the second death has no power over us, do you?

[John146]

Your argument on this one verse is not convincing. Again, if you read the entire book you will see the resurrections occur at different times.... (each in his own order 1 Cor 15) (Rev 20).

Why didn't Jesus mention more than one time coming then? He said "the time is coming", not "the times are coming". Also, do you understand that the order Paul gives us in 1 Cor 15:20-23 is that Christ's resurrection was first and then next in order is those who are His at His coming? Why do you act as if some are resurrected one time and then others another time when that's not at all what Jesus or Paul said?

Daniel 12:2 does not say it will happen all in the same day or at once neither does Acts 24:15. So your point here is not profiting.

I believe it's implied in Daniel 12:2. In Acts 24:15 Paul only mentions one resurrection event that includes both the just and unjust. Yet you see the resurrection of the just and resurrection of the unjust as two entirely separate events.

And what is this "last trumpet"?

What do you mean? Surely, you are aware of the last trumpet mentioned in 1 Cor 15:52? It will sound when the dead are raised and we are all changed at His coming.

First off we are talking unbelievers being resurrected at a different time than believers.... right?

Yes, but in your particular view you don't even have all believers being resurrected at the same time. Since you are not convinced that believers and unbelievers will be resurrrected at the same time, I thought I would show you that your understanding of believers being resurrected at different times is also flawed. You don't want to address that?

[thedee]

Also, do you understand that the order Paul gives us in 1 Cor 15:20-23 is that Christ's resurrection was first and then next in order is those who are His at His coming?

Those who are HIS is believers not unbelievers.

I believe it's implied in Daniel 12:2. In Acts 24:15 Paul only mentions one resurrection event that includes both the just and unjust. Yet you see the resurrection of the just and resurrection of the unjust as two entirely separate events.

Indeed I do.
"Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." - Rev 20:6

What do you mean? Surely, you are aware of the last trumpet mentioned in 1 Cor 15:52? It will sound when the dead are raised and we are all changed at His coming.

Surely I do but I do not know what you think it is. A common error is that it is believe this "last trumpet" is the same judgement trumpets as spoken of in Revelation. Is that your belief also?

Yes, but in your particular view you don't even have all believers being resurrected at the same time. Since you are not convinced that believers and unbelievers will be resurrrected at the same time, I thought I would show you that your understanding of believers being resurrected at different times is also flawed. You don't want to address that?

Clearly the First Resurrection... which is believers only... happens in stages.
1) Christ
2) Church (1 Thes 4)
3) 2 witnesses (Rev 11:16)
4) Those beheaded during great tribulation (Rev 20)
etc...

If you misunderstand what the "Last Trumpet" is then agreements will not happen.

[Beautiful Loser]

BL, neither would I say Jesus speaks only once! Many hear His voice NOW, or throughout the whole NC, Kingdom age. As a result they are made alive. But that is not the case with those who are in the graves! What the passage very clearly says is that a specific time ["the hour"] is coming when "all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." You acknowledge there is only one Judgment Day, so how can you argue those in the grave, being bodily raised for Judgment will hear His voice at different times? The raising of the dead from the graves for the Judgment is after earth and heaven have fled away, so what other time can there be that those in the graves hear His voice?

Re*20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Re*20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Re*20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Re*20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Re*20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The raising of the dead from the graves for the Judgment is after earth and heaven have fled away, so what other time can there be that those in the graves hear His voice?

That's the whole point... Believers in Christ are not, those not in Christ are:

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:16,17

But it is not speaking of just any old hour, it is very specifically speaking of "the hour...when all that are in the graves shall hear His voice". If it were not speaking specifically of the time of the bodily resurrection I would agree it could mean a period rather than specific time. But we can't take the hour that is coming and separate it from what will take place. And since you agree there is only one Judgment Day, you should also agree that there is only one very specific time, at the end of this age when Christ calls all humanity from the graves for Judgment.

Your argument breaks down because not everyone is raised on judgment day (standing before the throne). And because that point which you are trying to use as a point of reference to define the time period 'hour' fails, so does your definition for 'hour'.

I agree that the term 'hour' is defined by the resurrection, as that is what the passage is about. But it is between believers (raised when Jesus returns) and non-believers (after the destruction of the old earth/heaven Rev 20:11 but before the new 21:1). It is that time period, that 'hour', which is clearly not the same... as Jesus comes to destroy the earth by fire first (1st resurrection/believers) and then after it is destroyed the judgment (2nd resurrection/non-believers).

[John146]

Those who are HIS is believers not unbelievers.

I didn't say otherwise. The order Paul gave was the order of resurrections unto bodily immortality which only applies to Jesus and those who are His. So, I'm not sure why you were referring to 1 Cor 15:22-23 in support of your view.

Indeed I do.
"Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." - Rev 20:6

Christ's resurrection is the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Rev 1:5) and all believers have part in His resurrection. That verse cannot be used as evidence of the bodily resurrection of believers being an entirely separate event from the bodily resurrection of unbelievers. When it speaks of having part in the first resurrection it says those who have had part in the first resurrection are priests of God and of Christ? Are we not now priests of God and of Christ (Rev 1:5-6)? It also says that the second death has no power over those who have had part in the first resurrection. Does the second death have any power over us now?

Surely I do but I do not know what you think it is.

Why not? I told you that it will sound when the dead are raised and we are all changed at His coming. I think that's pretty clear.

A common error is that it is believe this "last trumpet" is the same judgement trumpets as spoken of in Revelation. Is that your belief also?

It's not an error. There are seven prophetic trumpets. It doesn't take a genius to know that the seventh will be the last of the seven to sound. At the time of the seventh trumpet the dead will be judged (Rev 11:18) and we know the dead will be judged after the thousand years. We also know that the judgment will occur at Christ's second coming (Matt 25:31-46, Matt 16:27, Rev 22:12) so that puts His second coming after the thousand years.

Clearly the First Resurrection... which is believers only... happens in stages.
1) Christ
2) Church (1 Thes 4)
3) 2 witnesses (Rev 11:16)
4) Those beheaded during great tribulation (Rev 20)
etc...

How can you reconcile this with the fact that Paul taught that all who are Christ's will be resurrected at His coming? He didn't say anything about it being in stages. You're blatantly contradicting what is taught in 1 Cor 15:22-23. You have believers being resurrected at His coming and other times. That is simply not what Paul taught at all. Jesus also said that all believers will be resurrected at the same time (John 5:28-29). So, your view contradicts 1 Cor 15:22-23 and John 5:28-29 among others.

If you misunderstand what the "Last Trumpet" is then agreements will not happen.

I believe you misunderstand the last trumpet and that's why we disagree.

[John146]

I agree that the term 'hour' is defined by the resurrection, as that is what the passage is about. But it is between believers (raised when Jesus returns) and non-believers (after the destruction of the old earth/heaven Rev 20:11 but before the new 21:1). It is that time period, that 'hour', which is clearly not the same... as Jesus comes to destroy the earth by fire first (1st resurrection/believers) and then after it is destroyed the judgment (2nd resurrection/non-believers).

If Jesus comes to destroy the earth, as Peter said He would (2 Peter 3:10-12), and the first resurrection occurred at that time then what mortals would be left to populate a supposed future millenial kingdom on earth?

[thedee]

I didn't say otherwise. The order Paul gave was the order of resurrections unto bodily immortality which only applies to Jesus and those who are His. So, I'm not sure why you were referring to 1 Cor 15:22-23 in support of your view.

Because I am saying the resurrection of believers and unbelievers occur at different times. Is that not what we have been talking about the past post?

Christ's resurrection is the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Rev 1:5) and all believers have part in His resurrection. That verse cannot be used as evidence of the bodily resurrection of believers being an entirely separate event from the bodily resurrection of unbelievers. When it speaks of having part in the first resurrection it says those who have had part in the first resurrection are priests of God and of Christ? Are we not now priests of God and of Christ (Rev 1:5-6)? It also says that the second death has no power over those who have had part in the first resurrection. Does the second death have any power over us now?

The First Resurrection is believers only.... that is why it says "blessed...."

The whole argument is if the Second Resurrection(death) takes place at the same time as the First Resurrection(life).... and it does not.

It's not an error. There are seven prophetic trumpets. It doesn't take a genius to know that the seventh will be the last of the seven to sound. At the time of the seventh trumpet the dead will be judged (Rev 11:18) and we know the dead will be judged after the thousand years. We also know that the judgment will occur at Christ's second coming (Matt 25:31-46, Matt 16:27, Rev 22:12) so that puts His second coming after the thousand years.

The trumpet in 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thes 4 has nothing to do with the 7 judgement trumpets in Revelation. Clearly the Trumpet is the voice of God as it says in (Rev 1:10; 4:1; 1Thes 4:16)

How can you reconcile this with the fact that Paul taught that all who are Christ's will be resurrected at His coming? He didn't say anything about it being in stages.

I showed the order in the prior post..... "Each in his own order".

Again, if you confuse the Trumpet of God you will not understand the resurrection.... and willl not understand the timing of the rapture.

I believe you misunderstand the last trumpet and that's why we disagree.

You are correct. If we can't agree on this we will not agree on when the resurrection and how it takes place.

[John146]

Because I am saying the resurrection of believers and unbelievers occur at different times. Is that not what we have been talking about the past post?

You referenced 1 Cor 15:22-23 and I commented on my understanding of it. How exactly does 1 Cor 15:22-23 support your view that the resurrection of believers and unbelievers occur at different times? It seemed to me that is what you were claiming.

The First Resurrection is believers only.... that is why it says "blessed...."

The whole argument is if the Second Resurrection(death) takes place at the same time as the First Resurrection(life).... and it does not.

No, that is not the whole argument. The debate has to do with what exactly the first resurrection is and the timing of it. You are the one who assumes that it's the bodily resurrection of believers but I don't agree with that. No one is making the argument that the first resurrection occurs at the same time as the second resurrection.

The trumpet in 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thes 4 has nothing to do with the 7 judgement trumpets in Revelation. Clearly the Trumpet is the voice of God as it says in (Rev 1:10; 4:1; 1Thes 4:16)

What about the voice of the archangel? You're not making a very convincing argument here. The last trumpet is clearly a prophetic trumpet and Revelation tells us there are seven prophetic trumpets. The seventh trumpet is obviously the last of them.

I showed the order in the prior post..... "Each in his own order".

And I showed you what "each in his own order" means. If you read 1 Cor 15:20-23 you should be able to see that it means that Christ's resurrection was the first, not of any kind, but the first unto bodily immortality, and next in order is the resurrection of those who are His at His coming. That's the order and it has nothing to do with when unbelievers are resurrected as they are not going to be resurrected unto bodily immortality as we are. But you try to say that some believers will be resurrected at other times besides His coming. Where does Paul say that? Certainly not in 1 Cor 15. There, he teaches that all of the dead in Christ will be raised at the same time and that all, including those who are alive at the time, will be changed at the same time, which will be at the sounding of the last trumpet, which will signal Christ's return.

[thedee]

You referenced 1 Cor 15:22-23 and I commented on my understanding of it. How exactly does 1 Cor 15:22-23 support your view that the resurrection of believers and unbelievers occur at different times? It seemed to me that is what you were claiming.

Revelation 20 is clear.

What about the voice of the archangel?

1 Thes 4:16 it says
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." - 1 Thes 4;16

It is the voice of God that is decribed here as also in (Rev 1:10; 4:1). When it says "with the voice of an archangel", this is simply a decription of Gods voice... it is not an angel but the Lord Himself.... nothing here is about the judgement trumpets in Revelation... NOTHING.

[John146]

Revelation 20 is clear.

Is it now? Even though it's been debated for centuries with scholars on both sides of the argument, you are here to declare that Revelation 20 is clear. I see. Then why can't you clearly show how your interpretation of it agrees with other scripture?

1 Thes 4:16 it says
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." - 1 Thes 4;16

It is the voice of God that is decribed here as also in (Rev 1:10; 4:1). When it says "with the voice of an archangel", this is simply a decription of Gods voice... it is not an angel but the Lord Himself.... nothing here is about the judgement trumpets in Revelation... NOTHING.

Sorry, but God is not an archangel. Your argument is nowhere near convincing. It says "voice of an archangel", not "voice of God". Don't try to change the text.

[Beautiful Loser]

Even if it was referring to a time period wouldn't you think that the thing that was said to occur during that time period would occur throughout that time period rather than once at the beginning and once at the end of it without it happening at all in between? Yet, that's how you see the hour coming when all will be raised. You say believers will all be raised when the hour first arrives, then a thousand years goes by without anyone being raised and then the unbelievers are raised. I don't see how the ones raised after a thousand years could be seen as being raised in the same hour as the ones raised a thousand years before. Seems like quite a stretch of the term "hour".

I understand what you are saying here, as Jesus would have described these as two different hours... if He was speaking about them all by themselves.

But Jesus definition of this term 'hour' (v.28) is in relation to the term first use of 'hour' (v.25). In relation to v.25, v.28 (being about 2 resurrections) is also an 'hour'. It is because the two events are related to the first event that they are singularly called an 'hour'. Its about the relation of two different resurrections, hence so to are the time periods.

Are you aware of any other times in scripture where that term is used in that way? If the resurrections were going to be far apart in time I don't know why Jesus would refer to only one time that was coming. It certainly doesn't give the impression that some would be raised at one moment and the rest would be raised at a much later time.

I hope the explanation above suffices for this in regards to the term itself. As far as another use of scripture Dan 12:

v.4 ... conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time...
v.10 Many will purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand.

Concealed until the end of time, so those who understand are at the end of time. This period also has the wicked who do not understand. End of time also includes v.1,2 about the resurrection. So the period or 'hour' called 'the end of time' includes from the time of understanding and purging and refining until the resurrection of both the good and wicked. So the time of Jesus' earthly ministry (when understanding occured) until the present earth and heavens are no more (resurrection of the wicked Rev 20:11). The end has a lot of parts to it.

And that doesn't even have a former reference point to allow the designation. I am not sure there is another scripture that will duplicate that. Maybe though, I don't have the whole of scripture memorized.

If we're in Christ we do take action. Not as ruling dictators, as you understand reigning, but as His servants spreading the gospel and loving others.

Which is never described as reigning.

Of course. Everyone knows the difference. But the question is why you insist that Rev 20:6 is speaking of reigning in an earthly dictator sense rather than in a spiritual sense.

If I'm arguing from silence then so are you. We'll just have to agree to disagree on what type of reigning Rev 20:6 is referring to.

I don't insist. There is no necessity to the language. It can be both. What I am insisting upon, and upon which their is necessity is that passages such as in John 5 cannot be argued in a way to 'prove' that it is spirtual. Because it can be otherwise. See the difference?

He will have all under His feet at His coming because that is when the end comes (1 Cor 15:23-24) and when death will be defeated (1 Cor 15:26,54).

Actually no, death is defeated during the second death... after Jesus' judgment not His coming (Rev 20:4 21:4) which 1 Cor 15:26,54 show (the last thing to be made imperishable is new earth/heavens).

I think you're missing something here. Look at Rev 11:15-18 again. When will it be the time for the dead to be judged? At the time that the seventh trumpet sounds, right? And when are the dead judged in relation to the thousand years? After (see Rev 20:11-15). This shows that the seventh trumpet sounds after the thousand years are over, not before they begin.

No it doesn't. As all these things do not happen while the trumpet sounds, but after (v.15). There is no time reference in regards to the nations being enraged, wrath, and the dead to be judged except a reference of it happening after the trumpet sounds. Which still allows a literal reign on earth. You could break up what happens in that period after the trumpet into 1 million year periods and it would still agree with language.

From the fact that you continually act as if our reign with Christ must be an earthly one where we directly rule over people. So, it's more like a dictatorship than a case of having spiritual authority in Christ and reigning in that sense.

I agree that Jesus is coming back to save what is His and crush the rest. Since all who are His will be caught up to Him and will have immortal bodies and all the rest will be killed then what mortals would be left to populate a supposed millennial earthly kingdom? Tell me, who among those who are alive on the day Christ returns and don't know God and don't believe in Christ will survive?

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

with:

You lost me here. I don't see how 2 Peter 3:8 can be related to this issue at all. All 2 Peter 3:8 shows is that time doesn't matter to God. One day is no different than a thousand years to Him. I don't see how that would have anything to do with John 5:28-29.

The day of the Lord, the period of time where the ungodly are destroyed, is described as one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day. That day does not have to happen all at the same time. For all we know it could take a million years of burning with fire or one second. See how it comes into play?

[Edit portion: This answers your objection above:

If Jesus comes to destroy the earth, as Peter said He would (2 Peter 3:10-12), and the first resurrection occurred at that time then what mortals would be left to populate a supposed future millenial kingdom on earth?

[End edit]

What did you mean by this?

Judging like a dictator means my way or the highway. Which is not the way it is now, but will be when Christ comes again. What is the difference between doing what Jesus does at the end (which you agree with) versus doing it over a period of time? If you disagree with it over time then you would disagree with it in a short period.

Its like saying torture isn't ok, unless you do it quickly.

So I thought maybe you disagreed with what would happen at the end, at Jesus' coming. But from what you wrote, you don't. Its why I didn't want to spell it out and acuse you of something you do not hold to.

But your position on the topic is contradictory as shown above. If its ok for a short period of time, then it is ok for any period of time.

[thedee]

Is it now? Even though it's been debated for centuries with scholars on both sides of the argument, you are here to declare that Revelation 20 is clear. I see. Then why can't you clearly show how your interpretation of it agrees with other scripture?

LOL. I sense hostility. Calm down Eric. It is clear when you understand the "last trumpet".

Sorry, but God is not an archangel. Your argument is nowhere near convincing. It says "voice of an archangel", not "voice of God". Don't try to change the text.

Did I say God was? I said that is a description of His voice. In 1 Thes 4 who is the one sounding the trumpet?
"with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God". Is it God or an archangel? Who is the one who descends with a "SHOUT"? Who is shouting Eric? Who's voice is it?
As (Rev 1:10; 4:1) state the voice of God is described as a Trumpet when he says "COME UP HERE". Only 3 times this phrase is used in the bible and it always refers to the calling up of individuals.

[RogerW]

That's the whole point... Believers in Christ are not, those not in Christ are:

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:16,17

All are in the graves bodily, even those in Christ; believers bodies too. Every single human (less those who are still physically alive when He comes again) body that has physically died is in the grave, and every single one of them, both believers and unbelievers "hear His voice" from the graves and are bodily resurrected. 1Th 4:16,17 are simply showing us that those physical bodies of believers are raised first, even before the bodies of believers still living when He comes again. We know this not only from this passage, but also from 1Co 15 when it says we are changed in the moment, at the twinkling of an eye at the sound of the last trump, when Christ comes again. At His coming those in Christ, bodily in the graves are raised first, then believers who have not physically died are raised, and then according to Jo so too are "the dead" raised to stand in the Judgment. All on the last day, at the end of time, the Second Coming of Christ in glory.