The 70th week: Fulfilled, unfulfilled?

[RogerW]

And I agree, using John 5 for that interpretation works great. But the view has other problems as previously shown.

With using the resurrection that is now and future from John 5 as the basis, that makes perfect sense.

Completey agree and its how I described it. Double thumbs up!

No idea why you are bringing it up though.

Your first part I agree. The second I can't, here is why:

... all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth.

Both groups come out of their tombs after hearing Jesus' voice (not necessarily at the same time).

Why would you add "not necessarily at the same time"? It says "the hour" is coming when "all" that are in the graves hear His voice, the good to everlasting life, the evil to damnation. How can this be different times of resurrection since "all" hear His voice for Judgment? Are there any passages that indicate Judgment Day comes more than once?

[thedee]

In John 5:28-29 does Jesus say times (plural) are coming when all of the dead will be raised or that the time (singular) is coming when all of the dead will be raised? Your view demands that there are two times coming, a thousand years apart, when all of the dead will be raised. But that's not what Jesus said. He said the time is coming (one time) when all of the dead will be raised.

You need to read the entire book to get the whole story and not just one passage in John. 1 Thes 4 says "the dead IN CHRIST will rise first". Notice it is only believes (in Christ) who will rise.... not all the dead.

[John146]

You need to read the entire book to get the whole story and not just one passage in John.

Who said I haven't? I believe what I do because of my understanding of scripture as a whole, not just because of one passage. You still have to be able to reconcile your view with John 5:28-29. Can you? I don't believe you can without changing the text or adding to it.

1 Thes 4 says "the dead IN CHRIST will rise first". Notice it is only believes (in Christ) who will rise.... not all the dead.

But what is the context of that verse? Unbelievers aren't even mentioned in 1 Thess 4:14-17. The context is that before those who are alive and remain are caught up to meet Christ in the air, the dead in Christ will rise first. You can't read any more into it than that. The alive in Christ will not be caught up before the dead in Christ are raised. It's not saying the dead in Christ rise first before the dead who are not in Christ. To draw that conclusion is an argument from silence. The passage from John 5, on the other hand, mentions the resurrection of both the saved and the lost and says they will be raised at the same hour or time that is coming.

[Caleb]

Of course! That's why we have the armor of God to have victory over the devil. The devil is bound through prayer, only since the cross. It is because we now reign with Jesus that we can put on that armor of God.

Perhaps someone forgot to tell Paul?

1Th 2:18 Because of this, we desired to come to you, truly I, Paul, both once and twice; but Satan hindered us.

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why did Satan fill your heart for you to lie to the Holy Spirit and to secretly keep back from the price of the land?

Act 26:18 to open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the authority of Satan to God, in order that they may receive remission of sins, and an inheritance among those being sanctified by faith in Me.

Rom 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

1Co 5:5 to deliver such a one to Satan for destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

[thedee]

Who said I haven't? I believe what I do because of my understanding of scripture as a whole, not just because of one passage. You still have to be able to reconcile your view with John 5:28-29. Can you? I don't believe you can without changing the text or adding to it.

John 5:28-29 does not say it will happen all at once. It only says all who are in the graves will hear His voice. It is like saying all will finish the race. Yes everyone will finish the race but in their own order (1 cor 15)..... which is at different times.

But what is the context of that verse? Unbelievers aren't even mentioned in 1 Thess 4:14-17.

Exactly so that means all will not be resurrected at the same time. Believers and unbelievers occur at different times as Revelation 20 states.

The passage from John 5, on the other hand, mentions the resurrection of both the saved and the lost and says they will be raised at the same hour or time that is coming.

Is it an hour according to our English understanding.... meaning 60 minutes. No don't think so.

You could just as well say in this verse "for the time is comming....".

Remember again that 1 Cor 15 says "each in his own order".

[Caleb]

Who said I haven't? I believe what I do because of my understanding of scripture as a whole, not just because of one passage. You still have to be able to reconcile your view with John 5:28-29. Can you? I don't believe you can without changing the text or adding to it.

Hope we are not derailing to far:

Though his works are judged, the believer (himself) in Christ, does not come into judgment for "resurrection of life".
His judgment (the believer) is based on trusting in what Jesus Christ has done, not what we have done (good or bad)

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, The one who hears My Word, and believes the One who has sent Me, has everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

This judgment (GWT) is on those who have not put their trust in Christ.
They are judged by their works good or bad. Those who are under the law, will be judged by the law. Those who are not under the law, will be judged without the law, but according to the conscience.

John 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs will hear His voice.
John 5:29 And they will come out, the ones having done good into a resurrection of life; and the ones having practiced evil into a resurrection of judgment.

[DurbanDude]

But you missed my point Dude. The OT saints, who died in faith before the cross went to the grave to await His coming. So when He ascended to heaven after His resurrection they were spiritually raised to heaven with Him. At His coming they were made alive! We who live on this side of the cross and resurrection have the joy of being with Him spiritually in heaven (with the OT saints that were spiritually raised at His first coming) at the moment of our physical deaths, and when He comes again every believer throughout time will be bodily resurrected being made incorruptible and immortal.

Paul tells us the body that dies is corrupt and mortal because it is made of flesh and blood. So while it is buried in corruption, our bodies of flesh and blood are not immediately raised in incorruption and immortality. But we, that is our spirits are raised when we die (2Co 5:8; Ph 1:20-24) because when we were born again of the Spirit of God, our spirit, or the essence of who we are, our mind, will, emotion is made alive in Christ. That is what Paul means when he says, "it is sown a natural body;it is raised a spiritual body", because we have both a natural and spiritual body. How can we have this assurance? Because in Adam, the first man, we are born of flesh, so also in the Second Adam; i.e. Christ, we are born again or from above given spiritual life by the Spirit. So while we are alive in the earth, we bear the image of our earthly existance through flesh and blood, but when we are raised to heaven flesh and blood cannot enter there, so we go there in the spirit, possessing our heavenly form which is spiritual.

1Co*15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co*15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co*15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co*15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co*15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co*15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co*15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co*15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co*15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

But when Christ comes again in glory, after He will change our bodies that were sown in corruption and mortal to incorruption and immortal because then death will be no more. So we will reign in eternity with Christ in bodies like those God created in the beginning to be.

1Co*15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co*15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co*15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co*15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

AMEN!

I think I did miss your point, all you say here makes sense, amen!

[RogerW]

I think I did miss your point, all you say here makes sense, amen!

I'm glad it makes sense to you Dude. I'm not sure how you interpret Rev 20, but I'm wondering if with this understanding you might also see those who live and reign with Christ for 1000 yrs, are living and reigning because they have part in the first resurrection, which is spiritual?

[RogerW]

John 5:28-29 does not say it will happen all at once. It only says all who are in the graves will hear His voice. It is like saying all will finish the race. Yes everyone will finish the race but in their own order (1 cor 15)..... which is at different times.

Dee, Jo 5:29 says those resurrected from their graves are being raised for the Judgment, "they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." There is only one Judgment Day, not two at different times.

[DurbanDude]

I'm glad it makes sense to you Dude. I'm not sure how you interpret Rev 20, but I'm wondering if with this understanding you might also see those who live and reign with Christ for 1000 yrs, are living and reigning because they have part in the first resurrection, which is spiritual?

lol, sorry no. I have always agreed that we take part in Jesus' resurrection, but your reading of Rev 20 does not fit for me.

20:4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Who takes part in the first resurrection? ALIVE SOULS of those who have died. These souls have already experienced the partaking of salvation through Christ, yet they are the ones who "live and reign" for 1000 years. The verse goes from past tense (were beheaded, had not worshipped) to present tense, indicating that the living and reigning occurs to the living souls after John sees the beheaded souls, not at the point of beheading or before.

[thedee]

Dee, Jo 5:29 says those resurrected from their graves are being raised for the Judgment, "they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." There is only one Judgment Day, not two at different times.

Believers are not judged at the Great White Throne.... Only unbelievers. Believers are only judged/rewarded on their works.

[RogerW]

Believers are not judged at the Great White Throne.... Only unbelievers. Believers are only judged/rewarded on their works.

I agree! Believers are never judged because Christ has already been judged for us. We do indeed ALL stand in the Judgment at the right hand of Christ (Ro 14:10; 2Co 5:10). We are standing with Him already clothed in immortal, incorruptible bodies we received at His coming. He is our Shield and our Exceeding Great Reward (Ge 15:1)!

1Co*15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co*15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co*15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Php*3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Php*3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

[RogerW]

lol, sorry no. I have always agreed that we take part in Jesus' resurrection, but your reading of Rev 20 does not fit for me.

20:4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Who takes part in the first resurrection? ALIVE SOULS of those who have died. These souls have already experienced the partaking of salvation through Christ, yet they are the ones who "live and reign" for 1000 years. The verse goes from past tense (were beheaded, had not worshipped) to present tense, indicating that the living and reigning occurs to the living souls after John sees the beheaded souls, not at the point of beheading or before.

I agree Dude! It is living souls that have part in the first resurrection. And it is they, who are living and reigning with Christ for a thousand years, not because they were beheaded, but because they are partakers of the first resurrection. Hence for them there is no second death. They have died in Christ (buried with Him) once, so they will never die again!

[Beautiful Loser]

Why would you add "not necessarily at the same time"? It says "the hour" is coming when "all" that are in the graves hear His voice, the good to everlasting life, the evil to damnation. How can this be different times of resurrection since "all" hear His voice for Judgment? Are there any passages that indicate Judgment Day comes more than once?

As others have already pointed out 3 flaws here.

It says hear is voice, it does not say Jesus only speaks one time. Just based upon the sentence structure, how it is worded, it is possible to say Jesus either speaks more than one time (or the groups hear at different times, but too many problems going that direction).

Nor does saying this mean there is more than one judgment day, as the saints do not find out that they are saints before a throne at the end. The dead in Christ are with Him now (Php 1:23) and so already know, and the believers that remain with be caught up in the sky with Him (1 Thess 4:17) and know as well.

As has already been pointed out "an hour" designates a period. It does not mean everything happens at the same moment, but rather within the same period.

In John 5:28-29 does Jesus say times (plural) are coming when all of the dead will be raised or that the time (singular) is coming when all of the dead will be raised? Your view demands that there are two times coming, a thousand years apart, when all of the dead will be raised. But that's not what Jesus said. He said the time is coming (one time) when all of the dead will be raised.

Answered above. But a quick point based upon how you have phrased it.

An hour (time) is coming. That period can be broken into minutes and seconds (or a lot of other things for a time). Many things can happen in an hour (time) and be related by the singular. If you go to 2 Pet 3:8 it relates this same truth. Which happens to be about the day of judgment, which makes that scripture very, very interesting.

That is simply not true. The following is speaking of John and other believers at the time John was writing the book of Revelation:

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Here, John was including himself among "us" who had been made "kings and priests unto God and his Father". How could it be that they were made kings and priests (or a kingdom of priests, as other translations put it) but were not reigning with Him?

Yes this statement is literally true: There is no verse which sates we reign with Christ now, only in the future.

If the verse you gave is true (as I said it is in one strand, others have kingdom) we are kings.

You can be a king and not reign. Being a king is based upon heredity. Reigning is an action.

So yes, that statement is 100% accurate.

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

We have been raised up together and made to sit togetherr in heavenly places in Christ Jesus but we don't reign with Him? I don't see how you can come to that conclusion.

with ...

Yeah...and you have chosen to kind of just brush those aside because...?

Because the two different types of verses show something. Christ reigns now in one sense, and does not in another. He reigns fully in heaven, he reigns in a different way on earth. See the difference?

Not necessarily. It can mean we reign now and will continue to reign.

It can, but the majority of the evidence points to not reigning now (your pointing at 1 iffy scripture (can be kingdom) for reigning). Or at the very least not reigning over people which are not of Christ.

Are you suggesting that you believe God's will would be done at all times during the supposed future millennial kingdom on earth? You think that no one would ever disobey God during that time?

I wouldn't be able to say that (Rev 20:8) and they would still be in the flesh (Rom 8:8). So they wouldn't, but we would. And then at the end of that period, everything would (new heavens and earth). Its a reference point showing how God reigns in heaven is different than how God reigns on earth. God's will cannot reign like in heaven until Jesus hands over everything to the Father which will not happen until Jesus has all under His feet (1 Cor 15:24-28).

Not true. Jesus Himself said His kingdom is not of this world. It's not an earthly kingdom now nor will it ever be. It's a heavenly and spiritual kingdom. We are in it now.

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

He will deliver His kingdom to the Father when He returns (1 Cor 15:23-24).

Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever. Rev 11:15

... saying. We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. Rev 11:17

Notice verse 18: And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged ...

All after the seventh trumpet, when the earth becomes the kingdom of God and He begins to reign upon it. That does not fit with "it will always be a spiritual kingdom". Although I agree, right now it is just that. Remember, just as the apostles saw Jesus leave the earth He will return in the same way (Acts 1:11).

I'm not arguing from silence, I'm using scripture to back up my view.

A scripture that may mean king or may mean kingdom. That doesn't refer to reigning at all. And for the reigning part you are arguing from silence, because there is no scripture that says it. And there is no logical necessity, no deduction from being a king to reigning.

As long as you're going to insist that in order to reign with Christ it has to be the way earthly kings reign (like dictators) then we're not going to agree on this.

Not sure where you got this. But I will just point out, its God's way and no other. Any other way is thrown into the second death, Jesus is coming back to save what is His and will crush the rest. But that is all I will point out, because I am hoping I misunderstood what you said here.

[DurbanDude]

I agree Dude! It is living souls that have part in the first resurrection. And it is they, who are living and reigning with Christ for a thousand years, not because they were beheaded, but because they are partakers of the first resurrection. Hence for them there is no second death. They have died in Christ (buried with Him) once, so they will never die again!

lol, now you are missing my point! I started my post saying your reading "does not fit for me" and after I made my point, you reply "I agree Dude", so we are definitely miscommunicating somewhere here.

No, it is dead souls that take part in the Jesus' resurrection, and come alive. It is the living souls that take part in the first resurrection (referring to the first general resurrection, not Christ's resurrection) by receiving our resurrection bodies at the second coming. Whenever Jesus is answering questions about the resurrection he always is referring to the general resurrection and not his own resurrection. Jesus' own resurrection is the forerunner. the example, the firstfruits of what will happen to the rest of us at the first resurrection when we too will all receive our resurrection bodies at the second coming, just like Jesus did after the crucifixion. Any references to a general resurrection of the righteous are referring to our physical resurrection at the second coming and nothing else.

As I was saying , if you analyse the tenses in Rev 20, you can clearly see that the "coming alive" occurs AFTER the souls of the beheaded are already seen in heaven by John, this particular coming alive DOES NOT occur before they are beheaded, or at the moment of beheading. In Rev 20 these are past tense events, yet the coming alive of Rev 20 is present tense, indicating that the 1000 years begins AFTER salvation and martyrdom, not at one of those moments as you appear to be saying.

How can souls who already have salvation, and already have victory over death by continuing to live after death, then "come alive" or be resurrected. This resurrection is obviously referring to the physical resurrection at the second coming because these souls already have everything else.

I hope you understand my point, the tenses make your interpretation impossible.