except there come a falling away first?

[John146]

I believe it is referring to the jews as told in Revelation 7.

But the gathering of Matthew 24:30 and the gathering of 2 Thess 2:1 both are said to occur on the day of the second coming of Christ. How do you reconcile that with your view?

No, this is all believers.... unless everyone is not clothed in fine linen.

If it's literally all believers and they're all in heaven then are you saying you believe there will be no believers on the earth on the day of His second coming?

Really.... It says "we are caught up to meet in the air"... no silence there.

And it doesn't say what happens to us after that so whatever you believe happens to us right after that has to come from other scripture rather than that passage. Just because it doesn't mention a particular thing happening at that time doesn't mean that it can't happen at that time. My belief is not that He immediately comes down to the earth at that time, anyway. I believe the earth will first be burned up at His coming (2 Peter 3:10-12) and He ends up coming down to the new earth (this earth renewed by fire), not the earth as we know it now.

Not accord to Rev 19. The marriage of the Lamb occurs before the Second comming.

What is your understanding of Matthew 25:1-13? That portrays the second coming of Christ occurring and believers being taken up to the marriage at that time. And we know from Matthew 24:29-31 that this occurs "after the tribulaton of those days".

[John146]

I give up. I told you to read Matthew 25 which is not the rapture.

I guess this means you're saying that He will not "be glorified in his saints, and...be admired in all them that believe" on the day of the rapture. I couldn't disagree more.

[John146]

This of course is an excellent point. When the day of the Lord occurs, what happens first? The dead in Christ rise. Then we which are alive and remain, we are caught up to meet the Lord in thee air. So where does that put us? With Christ of course. It would be impossible for us to be appointed to His wrath, because we are with Him, and His wrath begins after everyone is gathered. Even the pretribbers have to agree with the last part. Except for some reason, possibly because of the fear of the great trib, they put it 7 years prior to Christ's return. If millions upon millions of folks disappeared 7 yrs prior to Christ's return, then anybody left would know when the 2nd coming was..how about 7 years later. So much for not knowing the day nor hour. One might not get the correct day or hour right, but it would be hard to get the year wrong.

That's a good point that their view doesn't line up with the fact that no one knows the day or hour of His return. There's simply no basis for believing that we would be taken off the earth for any reason other than that God's wrath was coming down upon the entire earth but that won't happen until the day Christ returns. So, there simply is no basis for thinking we will be taken off the earth before that day.

[divaD]

That's a good point that their view doesn't line up with the fact that no one knows the day or hour of His return. There's simply no basis for believing that we would be taken off the earth for any reason other than that God's wrath was coming down upon the entire earth but that won't happen until the day Christ returns. So, there simply is no basis for thinking we will be taken off the earth before that day.

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.


This verse alone easily proves the pretrib position is not even remotely logical. If they are correct, and they are translated 7 years prior to Christ's return, then how in the world could Matthew 24:44 even be true? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if millions of saints disappear in 1993, then by simple addition, Christ must return sometime in the year 2000. But Matthew 24:44 clearly says He will return in such an hour as ye think not.

If for some reason the pretribbers apply Matthew 24:44 to the alleged rapture before the trib, then they also have to apply Matthew 24:29 first, since Matthew 24:44 would occur in time after Matthew 24:29. Clearly there would be a major contradiction then, as noted in bold.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

My guess is, things are just not going to happen the way some folks envision things, such as a literal AC sitting in literal temple proclaiming to be God. Unless I'm mistaken, the Greek word for 'temple' in 2 thess 2 is the one made without hands, and not as the literal temple, such as was destroyed in 70 AD. Obviously then, in regards to 2 Thess 2, it is a spiritual matter, and not so much a literal matter, such as someone literally sitting in a literal temple proclaiming to be God.

[thedee]

But the gathering of Matthew 24:30 and the gathering of 2 Thess 2:1 both are said to occur on the day of the second coming of Christ. How do you reconcile that with your view?

Matthew 24:30 is talking about the jews:
"After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed" - Rev 7:1-4

You see... the remanant of the Jews will go through the tribulation just like Noah did.

If it's literally all believers and they're all in heaven then are you saying you believe there will be no believers on the earth on the day of His second coming?

It appears that those who do not take the mark are beheaded. The Lord returns with all His army to resuce Israel..... The remnant.

And it doesn't say what happens to us after that so whatever you believe happens to us right after that has to come from other scripture rather than that passage. Just because it doesn't mention a particular thing happening at that time doesn't mean that it can't happen at that time. My belief is not that He immediately comes down to the earth at that time, anyway. I believe the earth will first be burned up at His coming (2 Peter 3:10-12) and He ends up coming down to the new earth (this earth renewed by fire), not the earth as we know it now.

After Revelation 4:1 the Church is not mentioned anymore on the earth like in the prior chapter. You see them in heaven in chapter 4. I believe 4:1 to be the point of the rapture "COME UP HERE" and the sound of the trumpet.

What is your understanding of Matthew 25:1-13? That portrays the second coming of Christ occurring and believers being taken up to the marriage at that time. And we know from Matthew 24:29-31 that this occurs "after the tribulaton of those days".

I will reply to this in a bit.

[thedee]

What is your understanding of Matthew 25:1-13? That portrays the second coming of Christ occurring and believers being taken up to the marriage at that time. And we know from Matthew 24:29-31 that this occurs "after the tribulaton of those days".

You can put it this way. The marriage is in heaven... the supper is on earth
"Let your waist be girded and your lamps burning; and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding, that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately." - Luke 12:35-36

You see in the verses I quoated above in order for the master to return from the wedding there must of been a bride. The Church is the bride. When the master returns at the Second Comming the Church/Bride (clothed in fine linen) will return with Him... as Luke 12 states.

The 10 virgins is Israel. The bride is in heaven during the Great Tribulation period and the marriage is taking place (Rev 19).

[thedee]

This verse alone easily proves the pretrib position is not even remotely logical. If they are correct, and they are translated 7 years prior to Christ's return, then how in the world could Matthew 24:44 even be true? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if millions of saints disappear in 1993, then by simple addition, Christ must return sometime in the year 2000. But Matthew 24:44 clearly says He will return in such an hour as ye think not.

But on the same note when AntiChrist steps foot in the temple in the midst of the week then can you not start a countdown. Why would I watch for the rapture now when the events in Revelation, 2Thes2,etc... have not even happened yet? If the rapture happens in the middle or end of this time period then I can get pretty close to the time of the Rapture. If the Rapture happens before all these events take place then it could happen at any time.

Why would I look now for winter when the leaves havn't even fallen of the tree yet?

Titus 2:13 "looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,"

[John146]

Matthew 24:30 is talking about the jews:
"After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed" - Rev 7:1-4

You see... the remanant of the Jews will go through the tribulation just like Noah did.

The elect are gathered from throughout heaven and the earth. It's referring to all believers in heaven and earth.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

It appears that those who do not take the mark are beheaded. The Lord returns with all His army to resuce Israel..... The remnant.

You said that Rev 19 is referring to literally all believers. Except for a remnant of believers in Israel? If you can allow for an exception why can't I?

After Revelation 4:1 the Church is not mentioned anymore on the earth like in the prior chapter. You see them in heaven in chapter 4. I believe 4:1 to be the point of the rapture "COME UP HERE" and the sound of the trumpet.

This is an incredibly weak argument. The church is mentioned several times after chapter 4.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Those who "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" are those who are born of God and are in the church.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

The saints are Christians in the church.

1 Cor 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. 13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Who else but members of the church "have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb"?

[thedee]

You said that Rev 19 is referring to literally all believers. Except for a remnant of believers in Israel? If you can allow for an exception why can't I?

The 70th week of Daniel I believe is of Israel... not the Church. In Zech 14 all nations will come to battle against Jerusalem and that is when Christ will return to stop it before (unless those days should be shortened no flesh will be saved but for elect sake those days will be shortened).

This is an incredibly weak argument. The church is mentioned several times after chapter 4.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This is not speaking of the Church. The target of Satan here is the "remanant of her seed." The "remnant" in Scripture refers to the faithful one who reamin true after the mass have proven their unfaithfulness. So 1Kings 19:14,18 speaks of 7000 in Israel who have not yet bowed the knee to baal.

Zechariah 13:8-9 shows that out of end-time Israel one-third will survive the Great Tribulation. These will turn to Christ in faith at His coming at Armageddon or prior (Zech 12:9-10). They shall see His feet "stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives" (Zech 14:4)

All your other quoted verses on the multitude in the Great Tribulation I have never denied them. This is not the same group who were Resurrected at the time of the Church. This multitude in the Great Tribulation are resurrected later as stated in Revelation 20. The two witnesses are resurrected before this even. So here we have the First Resurrection not happening in one time but at differnt times ending at Revelation 20.

[John146]

You can put it this way. The marriage is in heaven... the supper is on earth

Where does scripture teach this? Show me specific scripture that says the marriage is in heaven and the supper is on earth.

"Let your waist be girded and your lamps burning; and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding, that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately." - Luke 12:35-36

You see in the verses I quoated above in order for the master to return from the wedding there must of been a bride. The Church is the bride. When the master returns at the Second Comming the Church/Bride (clothed in fine linen) will return with Him... as Luke 12 states.

We can see from 1 Thess 4:14 that it is the dead in Christ that return with Him. Their bodies would not have been resurrected and changed yet at that point. He will be returning from wedding preparations, not the wedding itself. Remember how He said that He was going to prepare a place for us (John 14)? He is preparing the wedding. The wedding itself doesn't take place until He returns and brings us to the marriage (Matt 25:10). There's no basis for thinking that the marriage takes place but then the marriage supper doesn't take place until seven years later. Why the delay? There'd be no reason for that.

Look at Rev 19. The judgment of the whore occurs before or at the same time that the marriage of the Lamb has come and the wife has made herself ready. How do you reconcile that with your view since your view would say that the wedding takes place well before the judgment of the whore?

The 10 virgins is Israel. The bride is in heaven during the Great Tribulation period and the marriage is taking place (Rev 19).

The five wise virgins represent the bride. Notice that the bridegroom (Christ) takes the five wise virgins with Him to the marriage. Who would the bridegroom come for except for His bride, the church? And notice that it says He brings them to the marriage. A marriage that you say would have already taken place seven years before this. Your view simply does not at all line up with Matthew 25:1-13.

There is no basis for differentiating between the virgins and the bride. The five wise virgins in particular clearly represent the bride and them being taken up to the bridegroom and entering the marriage is a clear representation of the rapture. And since this happens at His coming (Matt 25:13) that means it happens after the tribulation of those days, as we can see from Matt 24:29-31.

[John146]

The 70th week of Daniel I believe is of Israel... not the Church. In Zech 14 all nations will come to battle against Jerusalem and that is when Christ will return to stop it before (unless those days should be shortened no flesh will be saved but for elect sake those days will be shortened).

The 70 week prophecy of Daniel did relate directly to Israel but it has been fulfilled for a long time already. It had to do with the Israel of old, not modern day Israel. I'm not going to derail this thread with discussion of that prophecy, though. There are plenty of threads out there already dealing specifically with that prophecy.

This is not speaking of the Church. The target of Satan here is the "remanant of her seed."

Yes, those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Christ (Rev 12:17). I showed you scripture which indicates that those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Christ are those who are born of God (1 John 5:1-5). That would include Jew and Gentile believers since all believers are born of God. The references to "the saints" are clear references to the church. Jesus prayed not that we would be taken out of the world but that God would protect us while we're in the world (John 17:15-20). Your theory completely contradicts His prayer.

Zechariah 13:8-9 shows that out of end-time Israel one-third will survive the Great Tribulation. These will turn to Christ in faith at His coming at Armageddon or prior (Zech 12:9-10). They shall see His feet "stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives" (Zech 14:4)

So, you think Zech 13:8-9 has to do with modern day Israel. Can you tell me your understanding of Zechariah 13:7?

All your other quoted verses on the multitude in the Great Tribulation I have never denied them. This is not the same group who were Resurrected at the time of the Church. This multitude in the Great Tribulation are resurrected later as stated in Revelation 20. The two witnesses are resurrected before this even. So here we have the First Resurrection not happening in one time but at differnt times ending at Revelation 20.

How can you think that those who "have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" are not part of the church? You are believing in a doctrine that denies those "which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" and those who "have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" are part of the church. It's truly astounding.

[thedee]

We can see from 1 Thess 4:14 that it is the dead in Christ that return with Him. Their bodies would not have been resurrected and changed yet at that point. He will be returning from wedding preparations, not the wedding itself. Remember how He said that He was going to prepare a place for us (John 14)? He is preparing the wedding. The wedding itself doesn't take place until He returns and brings us to the marriage (Matt 25:10). There's no basis for thinking that the marriage takes place but then the marriage supper doesn't take place until seven years later. Why the delay? There'd be no reason for that.

I don't see it the way you see it. Luke 12:35-36 "when he will return from the wedding". It does not say "when he will return from preparing the wedding". You can't add text to fit the view.

Look at Rev 19. The judgment of the whore occurs before or at the same time that the marriage of the Lamb has come and the wife has made herself ready. How do you reconcile that with your view since your view would say that the wedding takes place well before the judgment of the whore?

I said the wedding takes place during this time period. You give no time for a wedding being we are raptured and then immediately return with Christ at the Second Comming. Not much time for a wedding there.

The five wise virgins represent the bride. Notice that the bridegroom (Christ) takes the five wise virgins with Him to the marriage. Who would the bridegroom come for except for His bride, the church? And notice that it says He brings them to the marriage. A marriage that you say would have already taken place seven years before this. Your view simply does not at all line up with Matthew 25:1-13.

No, I believe this to be the supper not the wedding:
Here we see the Lord returning from the wedding:
"and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding, that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately" - Luke 12:36

The next verse the supper:
"Blessed are those servants whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Assuredly, I say to you that he will gird himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them." - Luke 12:37

[thedee]

Yes, those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Christ (Rev 12:17). I showed you scripture which indicates that those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Christ are those who are born of God (1 John 5:1-5). That would include Jew and Gentile believers since all believers are born of God. The references to "the saints" are clear references to the church. Jesus prayed not that we would be taken out of the world but that God would protect us while we're in the world (John 17:15-20). Your theory completely contradicts His prayer.

But look at the context. This is Israel.

So, you think Zech 13:8-9 has to do with modern day Israel. Can you tell me your understanding of Zechariah 13:7?

For your answer read Matthew 26:31. As far as Zech 13:8,9 go this is not fulfilled until the remanant of Israel is saved as spoken in Revelation.

How can you think that those who "have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" are not part of the church? You are believing in a doctrine that denies those "which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" and those who "have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" are part of the church. It's truly astounding.

Truly astonishing I know. Also astonishing that I believe the Church started at Pentecost where as those believe it was way before it to.
"And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." - Mat 16:18

I have yet to hear a good explanation of the First Resurrection by anyone for those who thinks it occurs at one time. The two witnesses, the great multitude from the great tribulation appear to be resurrected at different times. You cannot put those together. In order to put that togther you must believe also the 2 witnesses represent the Church... which does not fit either.

[John146]

I don't see it the way you see it. Luke 12:35-36 "when he will return from the wedding". It does not say "when he will return from preparing the wedding". You can't add text to fit the view.

If I'm adding text to fit the view then what do you call what you do with Matthew 25:10?

Matt 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

I said the wedding takes place during this time period. You give no time for a wedding being we are raptured and then immediately return with Christ at the Second Comming. Not much time for a wedding there.

Where do you see a description of a wedding actually taking place? I see in Rev 19 that it says the time for the marriage has come and the wife has made herself ready, but that is at the time of Christ's second coming.

No, I believe this to be the supper not the wedding:
Here we see the Lord returning from the wedding:
"and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding, that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately" - Luke 12:36

The next verse the supper:
"Blessed are those servants whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Assuredly, I say to you that he will gird himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them." - Luke 12:37

Again, Matthew 25:1-13 portrays the bridegroom coming for His bride, symbolically represented by the five wise virgins, and then He takes them to the marriage. Neither the marriage nor the marriage supper take place before that time. And that is at His coming which will be "after the tribulation of those days" (Matt 24:29-31). There is simply no basis for thinking that the marriage would take place only to have the marriage supper inexplicably delayed for seven years.

[John146]

But look at the context. This is Israel.

Who is Israel? We're talking about "those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Christ". That's not the nation of Israel but it is the Israel of God which is comprised of Jew and Gentile believers together as one.

For your answer read Matthew 26:31.

Which shows that the fulfillment of Zech 13:7 was when they came to arrest Jesus and have Him crucified and when His disciples scattered. Notice all the references in Zech 13 to "that day" which refers to a certain time period. Everything written in the chapter, including Zech 13:8-9, occurred in "that day". Doesn't the fulfillment of Zech 13:7 tell us which day or time period it's referring to?

Truly astonishing I know.

Maybe I should have said disturbing. How can those who "have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" and those who have the testimony of Christ not be considered part of the church when those are descriptions of people who are in the church? Why are you trying to separate Jews and Gentiles when they have been made one in Christ?

I have yet to hear a good explanation of the First Resurrection by anyone for those who thinks it occurs at one time.

Christ's resurrection is the first resurrection (1 Cor 15:20, Acts 26:23). As far as the bodily resurrection of believers Paul makes it very clear that all who are Christ's will be resurrected at Christ's coming (1 Cor 15:23). Not some at one time and some at another time and others at yet another time. All at His second coming.