except there come a falling away first?

[Caleb]

Question:

Is "except there come a falling away first" (apostasy) meant to be Christians (real or professing to be)?

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I know that this is what has and is been taught, but if this was so, then why would Paul say "be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled"?

If this was to be 'Christians' that was to apostatised, then I think that would be a good cause to be "soon shaken in mind, or be troubled"

Just a thought, but could this 'apostasy' be like modern day atheism, were man is saying 'there is no God'?

John 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

[markedward]

Apostasy is, by definition, leaving the true faith (i.e. ex-Christians). Not having always rejected (i.e. anyone who has never been a Christian).

[a pilgrim]

Apostasy is, by definition, leaving the true faith (i.e. ex-Christians). Not having always rejected (i.e. anyone who has never been a Christian).

Hi, new here! Thought I'd jump in on prophecy, one of my favorite topics. As markedward said, apostasy is those who have left the faith. I don't so much see that as "individual" apostates, so much as groups which we would have once considered, "straight," departing from fundamental truthes. I heard a guy on the radio the other day and he said something the the affect of the following:

One of Satans greatest tools is that of gradualization, incremental steps into sin and error.

I think this is consistent with the concept of "the falling away."

I have noticed before, (and God delivery me from the same error!) a tendancy to take a teaching and morph it into something the scriptures are not say. I heard a preacher one day, in an attempt to prop up the biblical doctrine of justication by faith, "If Hitler was born again, then he went to heaven!" I think he could have used a better illustration. He went on to say that the fruit of a professed believers life has absolutely nothing to do with whether they truely are saved or not.

Now, I know all of us can and have strayed from the Lord at some time or other, but to depart from God, never to return, or to have said "a prayer," and never to have showed any of the work of the grace of God in ones life is stretching the teaching out of shape, i.e., to wrest[le] scriptures.

Thus, as we see the coming of "that Wicked" coming, we see the morphed experience called "The Christian" faith taking on new definitions to the same old words. It's called "saved," but it is not what our fathers in the faith would have called it 100 or even 50 years ago. To depart from the truth.

Psa 119:140 Thy word [is] very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.

or

2Th 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

The serpant came slithering onto the scene asking: "ea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" and thus he continues to cast doubt into the minds of those who once held or saw the truth, but no longer...they've fallen away.

Just some thoughts,
Ben

[billy-brown 2]

Hi, new here! Thought I'd jump in on prophecy, one of my favorite topics. As markedward said, apostasy is those who have left the faith. I don't so much see that as "individual" apostates, so much as groups which we would have once considered, "straight," departing from fundamental truthes. I heard a guy on the radio the other day and he said something the the affect of the following:

One of Satans greatest tools is that of gradualization, incremental steps into sin and error.

I think this is consistent with the concept of "the falling away."

I have noticed before, (and God delivery me from the same error!) a tendancy to take a teaching and morph it into something the scriptures are not say. I heard a preacher one day, in an attempt to prop up the biblical doctrine of justication by faith, "If Hitler was born again, then he went to heaven!" I think he could have used a better illustration. He went on to say that the fruit of a professed believers life has absolutely nothing to do with whether they truely are saved or not.

Now, I know all of us can and have strayed from the Lord at some time or other, but to depart from God, never to return, or to have said "a prayer," and never to have showed any of the work of the grace of God in ones life is stretching the teaching out of shape, i.e., to wrest[le] scriptures.

Thus, as we see the coming of "that Wicked" coming, we see the morphed experience called "The Christian" faith taking on new definitions to the same old words. It's called "saved," but it is not what our fathers in the faith would have called it 100 or even 50 years ago. To depart from the truth.

Psa 119:140 Thy word [is] very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.

or

2Th 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

The serpant came slithering onto the scene asking: "ea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" and thus he continues to cast doubt into the minds of those who once held or saw the truth, but no longer...they've fallen away.

Just some thoughts,
Ben

a pilgrim,

Welcome to the forum! We are so glad that you are here!

The scriptures below from you are critical to this thread:

2Th 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Why?

Because these are unsaved people in v. 10 above.

And therefore, they are a different group than these who did not "fall away" in v. 13:

II Thess. 2
13But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

[divaD]

Just a thought, but could this 'apostasy' be like modern day atheism, were man is saying 'there is no God'?

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God

Looking at this verse, regardless how one might interpret this verse, it doesn't look like athiests are in mind here.

[Beckrl]

One possiblity would be that those christain's renounce their faith because of the persecution that they were under. (A falling away)

[RogerW]

Question:

Is "except there come a falling away first" (apostasy) meant to be Christians (real or professing to be)?

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I know that this is what has and is been taught, but if this was so, then why would Paul say "be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled"?

If this was to be 'Christians' that was to apostatized, then I think that would be a good cause to be "soon shaken in mind, or be troubled"

Just a thought, but could this 'apostasy' be like modern day atheism, were man is saying 'there is no God'?

John 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Hi Caleb,

I believe Scripture teaches that one who has been regenerated (born again) by the power of God, is kept by God, through the Spirit in us unto the day of his/her bodily redemption. So I don't believe this is speaking of those who are Christians, but rather those who are part of the body, being church members, who were baptized and make profession of faith. The way they fall away from the truth is through false prophets, who come in Christ's name, but preach another gospel, and these pseudo Christians lack faith, and follow their false doctrines.

Mt*24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mt*24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Ac*20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

1Ti*4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1Jo*2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Clearly there are false preachers, teachers, workers of iniquity, tares among the wheat. But they are not Christians who fall away from the faith, but those we are warned to guard against. They will continue to be among us until Christ comes again to gather them and burn them up.

1Jo*2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Mt*13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

[iconoclast2012]

...And notice full well...How the falling away go's hand & hand....with the revealing of the "Son of perdition"....THE "MAN OF SIN"....Do U get that yet....?

[billy-brown 2]

Here is the passage of the OP again:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The Greek word of the text in bold above, of course, is apostasia.

And this word has been translated variously to mean the following:

departure
rebellion
apostasy
falling away

And so, what does the word apostasia mean?

[notuptome]

Who is falling away and what are they falling away from? Paul was teaching that there was a certain expectation of judgment coming for those who know not God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thes 1:7-9 This would make those who are falling away unbelievers and they were falling away from the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Simply because the expectation for firey judgment was not forth coming was no reason to believe that it would come. God is slow in wrath and longsuffering toward the sinner but when the judgment comes it will be swift and terrible so that none can withstand it.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[thedee]

As post #7 says apostasia can mean "departure".

What is interesting about this is that in verse 3 it is again almost repeated in verse 7 & 8.

"Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition" - 2 Thes 2:3
"For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming." - 2 Thes 2:7,8

So falling away I believe to be the rapture.... which is a departure which again lines up with verse 7 when it says "He is taken out of the way".

[billy-brown 2]

As post #7 says apostasia can mean "departure".

What is interesting about this is that in verse 3 it is again almost repeated in verse 7 & 8.

"Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition" - 2 Thes 2:3
"For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming." - 2 Thes 2:7,8

So falling away I believe to be the rapture.... which is a departure which again lines up with verse 7 when it says "He is taken out of the way".

Yep . . . this is the "take" of the Amplified Bible and so on.

But I am sure that there are other "takes" on this word "apostasia" and so on, yes?

[thedee]

Yep . . . this is the "take" of the Amplified Bible and so on.

But I am sure that there are other "takes" on this word "apostasia" and so on, yes?

I am sure but being verse 3 lines up with verse 7 and 8 I believe that "falling away" in verse 3 is the rapture as in verse 7.

[billy-brown 2]

I am sure but being verse 3 lines up with verse 7 and 8 I believe that "falling away" in verse 3 is the rapture as in verse 7.

Well, here's the NIV's "take" on the verse of the OP in II Thess 2:1-3:

II Thess. 2
1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,
2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.
3Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for [that day will not come] until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Now, is this a valid translation of the passage of the OP above?

(And here are the other verses from you also . . .)

II Thess. 2
5Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?
6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.
7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

[John146]

I believe the context indicates that it is a falling away from the faith because of the deception that occurs.

2 Thess 2
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The ones who are deceived are the ones who fall away from the faith because "they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved". As a result of them falling away "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.".

Also, it wouldn't make sense for the falling away to refer to "the rapture" because Paul said the falling away occurs first before the day that the rapture occurs.

2 Thess 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Our gathering together unto Him is a clear reference to the rapture. It will occur at "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" which is called "the day of Christ" or "the day of the Lord" in verse 2. Then Paul says "that day", which is the day of "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and "our gathering together unto him" will not come until after the falling away happens first. So, the falling away is clearly not the rapture as it occurs first before the rapture occurs.