Be not be drunk with wine... wine thread.

[Amos_with_goats]

Ok. I did some weird mod stuff to split off this discussion and make this post in the first block... this discussion is split off of the The Way of the Master - Witnessing by the book? thread.


No reasonable follower of Christ can possibly miss the clear instruction to be not drunk with wine.

This thread is not advocating drunken behavoir.

However, there is a belief among many believers that wine is evil.

I do not see this in scripture. Actually, if not for love of my brothers I might propose that wine should be used for communion. I DO believe this is more accurate, but would not do it for fear that my 'weaker brother' might stumble.

I have wanted to start this thread for some time now, and will begin with a quote from UM...

Please set 'feelings' aside and let's discuss this... ok?

You forgot a few...

Category Wine Strong Drink
Use accepted as normal part of culture 58 1
Symbolic (The wine of his wrath, etc.) 32 1
Wine called a blessing from God 27 0
Use in offerings and sacrifices 24 1
Loss of wine an example of a curse from God 19 1
Examples of abuse of alcohol 16 3
Vows of abstinence 15 6
Warnings against abuse 13 4
Gifts between people 9 0
Comparisons (x is better than wine) 5 0
False accusations of drunkenness 3 1
Rules for selecting deacons 3 0
Miscellaneous 3 1
Abstinence in deference to weak consciences 1 0
Total 228 19

[Firefighter]

Does it have to be used in the Bible directly in order for you to see that it can be used?

No! Jesus did not drink with anybody. Show me one verse where he drank with them. He didn't. While going TO those places to seek them out, he was also "UNDEFILED, SEPARATE from sinners, and made higher than the heavens." He was pure. Even at the last supper, he refused to drink. On the cross, he refused vinegar MIXED with GALL.

Oh... NOW you want chapter and verse. It is a shame you do not apply that concept to WotM.

Do you suppose that Jesus ate and did not drink anything at that party? I mean really. While we are at it, please explain how drinking a glass of wine "defiles" someone. CHAPTER AND VERSE.

[jandl]

Oh... NOW you want chapter and verse. It is a shame you do not apply that concept to WotM.

You are sure a tough nut to crack! I gave you seven verses that show that using the law will bring a sinner to a knowledge of his sin. How many did you give me that were against that? None. But you've got to roll your eyes at me???

Do you suppose that Jesus ate and did not drink anything at that party? I mean really. While we are at it, please explain how drinking a glass of wine "defiles" someone. CHAPTER AND VERSE.

Again, you are assuming there was nothing else at the party, AND you are assuming that the WINE was alcoholic. Wine in the Bible can mean BOTH fruit of the vine (grape juice) and fermented wine. I am led to believe that Christ gave them grape juice. Christ was the SPOTLESS lamb of God, following much the same order of a Nazarite. Fermentation makes something ROTTEN and can be bad for the blood and destroys (howbeit at a slow rate) brain cells, and is BAD for the liver.

[Frecs]

You are sure a tough nut to crack! I gave you seven verses that show that using the law will bring a sinner to a knowledge of his sin. How many did you give me that were against that? None. But you've got to roll your eyes at me???

Again, you are assuming there was nothing else at the party, AND you are assuming that the WINE was alcoholic. Wine in the Bible can mean BOTH fruit of the vine (grape juice) and fermented wine. I am led to believe that Christ gave them grape juice. Christ was the SPOTLESS lamb of God, following much the same order of a Nazarite. Fermentation makes something ROTTEN and can be bad for the blood and destroys (howbeit at a slow rate) brain cells, and is BAD for the liver.

You are apparently claiming that drinking any wine is a sin. Please give me chapter and verse so stating.

[Firefighter]

Again, you are assuming there was nothing else at the party, AND you are assuming that the WINE was alcoholic.

I can prove that the wine had alcohol in it at the Last Supper...

[MoreMercy]

He was also called a devil...was he? They called him that. They called him John the Baptist risen from the dead...was he? They thought that. You are assuming that he drank alcohol. Unbelievers can really make up some lies about somebody that they hate, and they hated him. What happens when a Christian runs for office that is vocal about his faith? The media and his oppenent try to find everything about him that they can find fault with and lie about him to make him look bad or at the sinners level. Again, chapter and verse here of him ACTUALLY drinking.

This is it:
I am not a teacher, I would not teach with verses even if I was a teacher, verse lack sorely except in their own presented context of the chapter or books it was versed in.

I showed you how to try and understand what I have offered to share on this thread...
And I will show you again as you requested but not with a verse.
:In all of the 1st four gospels 'mathew, mark, luke and john' look up in a concordance the words drunkard and or publican and find in said books those words and read there if you want to see for yourself and not be taught by men: why some called Him a drunkard and a publican.
If you will not do that, then you are wasting your time trying to edify me.

His peace to you.

[Frecs]

I am not trying to edify you at the moment, I am trying to get something OUT of you and that is where someone said Christ drank, BESIDES HIS ENEMIES. Until you can show me that, it is mere speculation that he drank fermented wine while on earth.

I'd like you to show me chapter and verse that says drinking wine is a sin.

[kay-gee]

Sometimes, things are better to just NOT do even though they are not a sin in and of themselves.

This applies to drinking, smoking and the rest of that.

I doubt that Christ would have engaged in anything that would have compromised His Fathers work.

all the best...

[MoreMercy]

I would like to add that Christ came from heaven an Holy place separated/set apart, He came from there in a flesh vessel sanctified.
He came to an un-Holy earth/defiled, so folks He defiled Him self just by lowering Himself to give us an opportunity to become undefiled in His Fathers eyes.

Just by going to drunkards and publicans-sinners (He defiled Him self) Just as Him coming to earth a sinful place (He defiled Himself)

He taught that it is not what goes into a man but what comes out a man is what defiles said man.
He was defiled by every action of His work on earth, He knew He would be spit upon and insulted before we killed Him.
He allowed Himself to be defiled by us, meaning: (and He drank it)... He allowed this before He lay down His life for us, meaning: (so we could drink Him) and give us that clause to be undefiled and sanctified by Him in His Fathers eyes.
BUT, and this is the big BUT: He allowed Himself to be common/defiled/spit on/slandered, He allowed us to do that to Him (He drank it) to relate to us as defiled creatures, He drank that, so we could inturn relate to Him and drink of Him.

In His love and mercy He allowed Himself to be defiled by our very presence (our drink), so we could be washed by His very presence (His drink).





Dear: jandl
I will partake of strong drink when ever I see a gain in it, gain for myself or for others around me. Because I know it is not against Gods law nor mans law.
As for a drunkard, I will use discernment as to whether I will associate myself with said drunkard, if I see gain in it then I will, if I see no gain in it, then I will not.

Apparently Jesus saw gain in associating Himself with the drunkards in the accounts of our first four gospels.
Please try to understand that when I say: He ate and drank with them so they would eat and drink of Him.
Which seems to be the loop between me and you here. Please see that you only are offended by me saying He ate and drank, but you let slide and totally ignore the other part of the metaphor contained in the exact same sentence: so they would eat and drink of Him. or you take the end of the sentence as metaphor but the beginning of the sentence you do not, and you become defensive of our Lord as if I am assaulting Him.
Again jandl Please read the accounts of Him being titled by men as a friend of drunkards and publicans, which are I think recorded in all four of the first four gospels in our bibles new testament.


Father bless.

[Frecs]

And, how would drinking wine have interferred with his Father's work?

[jandl]

I'd like you to show me chapter and verse that says drinking wine is a sin.

The only verse in the entire bible that speaks positively of wine is I Timothy 5:23. Even that verse says it is to be used for stomach trouble. A medicinal purpose...come to think of it, so is marijuana. The Bible doesn't say marijuana is a sin, was Christ smoking marijuana? Hey, the Bible doesn't say it was a sin...so.... OH. Also, the Bible doesn't say getting married is a sin, was Christ married? Mary of Magdalene? huh? I could go on this all day. THE fact is is that someone can "hang" or be around drunks and not drink. I have done that all the time. Christ's presence convicted of sin. Christ would not DRINK in the presence of those getting drunk. The Lord inspired the passage that says, "Abstain from all appearance of evil." Unless the Bible says that Christ actually drank fermented wine, then I am led to believe that he was consistent with the rest of scripture on the topic.

[Frecs]

Getting defensive are we? Come now, JandL, that isn't necessary.

There are plenty of scriptures that speak of the sin of drunkenness. But, interestingly, not a one that says or suggests that consuming wine is a sin in and of itself. Thus, you can not by extrapolation say that because Jesus was sinless that proves he did not drink wine. Drinking wine is not a sin. No one in that culture would have seen Jesus' consumption of wine as "evil" or "appearing evil" so again, your analogy does not hold water. Your other efforts at analogies don't hold water, either. Sorry.

Edit: I would add that what is culturally viewed as sinful in one culture is not so in another. This was a topic of discussion on an A/G Pastor/Missionary EDG in which missionaries in Belgium and France commented that while drinking wine there isn't considered a sin, drinking coffee is! We must keep this in mind when reading the Bible and determining what would have been considered "sinful" in the culture Jesus lived in.

[Frecs]

You are correct Christ life on earth walking and teaching was living a vow of the Nazarene which did not allow Him to partake of strong drink.
I just want to clearly share with you though, that Christ did not condemn those who drank when He went to to have them drink of Him.
And, make clear that you came here and condemn those who will drink, when Christ did not when He came to us.


Father bless.

MoreMercy, please show me where Jesus took the vow of a Nazarite?

[MoreMercy]

MoreMercy, please show me where Jesus took the vow of a Nazarite?

I did not post here that: He took a the vow of a Nazarite.
Please read what I posted again: I clearly posted that I see His life walking and teaching on earth as living a vow of a Nazarene. IE: filling the requirments of a vow of a Nazarene.


His peace to you.

[Amos_with_goats]

What are you basing that on?

What do you believe He drank at the Last Supper?