Be not be drunk with wine... wine thread.

[Frecs]

There is no proof that there was alcoholic wine THERE in the first place. Why must you always ASSUME? Let's stick to the hard facts.

Seriously? You are kidding me right? You want hard facts? How's this:

Jhn 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: [but] thou hast kept the good wine until now.

The guests were drunk...on what? juice?

[Pillar]

Seriously? You are kidding me right? You want hard facts? How's this:

Jhn 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: [but] thou hast kept the good wine until now.

The guests were drunk...on what? juice?

Just to add to your post, the words "men have well drunk" come from a Greek word "methusthosin". The Greek root word here is μεθύω "methyo". In Vines Expository Dictionary the first translation is-"to be drunk, is used in John 2:10 in the Passive Voice, and is translated in the P.V.,"have drunk freely"; A.V. "have well drunk". Vines then goes on to clarify the matter by again translating the Greek root word "methyo" and defining it-"signifies to be drunk with wine". It is used to indicate becoming intoxicated in Matt 24:49; Acts 2:15; 1 Cor 11:21; 1 Thess 5:7. The Passive Voice used above indicates that the men who were intoxicated (drunk) were becoming more so.

[Firefighter]

That should qualify as "hard facts", but I doubt it will.

[Pillar]

One of the problems is that most Christians don't understand the original Greek manuscript language, so they don't know the difference between "drink or drank" πίνω(pinō), and "drunkard" μέθυσος(methysos), for just one small example.

It's amazing how much understanding the original Biblical manuscript languages helps you to understand the Bible, and to be able to read it for all it's worth.

[MaryFreeman]

This thread is seriously starting to crack me up ....

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Just to add to your post, the words "men have well drunk" come from a Greek word "methusthosin". The Greek root word here is μεθύω "methyo". In Vines Expository Dictionary the first translation is-"to be drunk, is used in John 2:10 in the Passive Voice, and is translated in the P.V.,"have drunk freely"; A.V. "have well drunk". Vines then goes on to clarify the matter by again translating the Greek root word "methyo" and defining it-"signifies to be drunk with wine". It is used to indicate becoming intoxicated in Matt 24:49; Acts 2:15; 1 Cor 11:21; 1 Thess 5:7. The Passive Voice used above indicates that the men who were intoxicated (drunk) were becoming more so.

Yessir, good stuff. It weren't Welch's or it wouldn't be the appropriate type and shadow of Himself as the "new wine" that is more desirable than that which had been previously served, etc.

[Servant89]

Please, ignore this post. Thank you.

No one ages grape juice, no one. Grape juice either goes bad or turns to wine. The best wine is the old wine, eveyone knows that. Ask yourself these questions:

What is the purpose of having a feast? What kind of wine Jesus made a the feast? Grape juice or alcoholic wine? What kind of wine makes people "merry"? Why do they call it happy hour? Now read:

John 2:7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.
8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.
9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew, the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

Lk 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

Eccles 10:19 A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry:

And what kind of wine makes people merry?

1 Sam 25:36 ... and Nabal's heart was merry within him, for he was very drunken:

Shalom

[Pillar]

Please, ignore this post. Thank you.

No one ages grape juice, no one. Grape juice either goes bad or turns to wine. The best wine is the old wine, eveyone knows that. Ask yourself these questions:

What is the purpose of having a feast? What kind of wine Jesus made a the feast? Grape juice or alcoholic wine? What kind of wine makes people "merry"? Why do they call it happy hour? Now read:

John 2:7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.
8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.
9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew, the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

Lk 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

Eccles 10:19 A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry:

And what kind of wine makes people merry?

1 Sam 25:36 ... and Nabal's heart was merry within him, for he was very drunken:

Shalom

And to add to your great post.

The 1st century Jewish marriages consisted of 2 parts. The betrothal(Erusin) and the wedding ceremony(Nisuin).

After the ceremony(Nisuin), the groom would take his virgin bride into his home and consummate the marriage.

After the consummation of the virgin bride was done, the 7 day wedding feast started. That's right, the bride and groom partied with the wedding guests for 7 days strait after the first marriage of a virgin bride.

I'll use a banquet feast with queen Ester for example. Ester chapter 7 the banquet of wine. Two different Hebrew words are used for banquet here. They are שָׁתָה and מִשְׁתֶּה. Both mean drinking and feasting. The Hebrew for to drink (yayin) wine, was used as synonymous with banquet. The ancient Hebrews, like other people of the ancient East, were very fond of social feasting, and in Christ's day had acquired, from contact with Greeks and Romans, luxurious and bibulous habits, that often carried them to excess in their social feasts.

[Servant89]

Question for the self righteous ....

If the blood of Jesus Christ cleaned all the food that were unclean before the cross (ACts 10:14-15).... why after Calvary would a Christian call unclean ... that which was clean to begin with? Wine was declared clean in the OT. God ordered Moses to pour wine in the offerings to the Lord. God will never ask Moses to offer a pig as an offering because it will polute the offering. But this is all happening because it was prophesied (Ecc 1:9-10)... that the Church will do the same thing that Israel did 2000 ago... to take a requirement that is only for the priest and only before going to minister in the Tabernacle (Exo 30:20; Lev 10:9), and teach the people that it is for everyone all the time. The pharisees did it with Exo 30:20, protestants are doing it with Lev 10:9.

Shalom

[Pillar]

Question for the self righteous ....

If the blood of Jesus Christ cleaned all the food that were unclean before the cross (ACts 10:14-15).... why after Calvary would a Christian call unclean ... that which was clean to begin with? Wine was declared clean in the OT. God ordered Moses to pour wine in the offerings to the Lord. God will never ask Moses to offer a pig as an offering because it will polute the offering. But this is all happening because it was prophesied (Ecc 1:9-10)... that the Church will do the same thing that Israel did 2000 ago... to take a requirement that is only for the priest and only before going to minister in the Tabernacle (Exo 30:20; Lev 10:9), and teach the people that it is for everyone all the time. The pharisees did it with Exo 30:20, protestants are doing it with Lev 10:9.

Shalom

Well the Christians who think alcohol is evil will say that the "clean" wine is not fermented wine. Or at least this would be the only argument that would make sense to me?

[Servant89]

Well the Christians who think alcohol is evil will say that the "clean" wine is not fermented wine. Or at least this would be the only argument that would make sense to me?

The Hebrew word "shekkar" means a drink with high content of alcohol (like rum, gin, vodka, etc.). In this passage God is ordering Israel to spend part of their tithing money in what they like and to eat it in his presense (Temple)... because we are supposed to joy in his presence. Because the HS was not yet given (John 7:37-39) God used a type and shadow of what was going to happen in Pentecost. He used alcoholic beverages to accomplish the effect. Nope, God did not say "get drunk", but he did say "drink it."

Deut 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

And strong drink is not unclean, for God required it as an offering.

Num 28:7 And the drink offering thereof shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the LORD for a drink offering.

Prov 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

ANd yes, that is the reason why people do not change their beliefs, it is because it does not make sense to them. It is written:

Jn 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Christians should base doctrine in the word and not in traditions of men.

Do you want to impress God?

Do this: Value the Word of God above traditions of men.

Donot do this: Trying to impress him with your holiness or how religious you are.

Shalom

[Pillar]

Another good post from you using scripture Servant89.

And I know several Christians who have bragged to me about how proud they are that they have never touched a drop of alcohol in their lives. This is the smart thing to do by the way, but they don't really know what they are talking about, because they take medicines(which is one positive use for alcohol).

Any liquid medicine labeled elixir contains alcohol. The reason alcohol is put in elixirs is because it's a solvent and a preservative. Cough syrups, antihistamines, decongestants, liquid forms of fever reducer and pain reliever, and expectorants usually all contain alcohol. Mouthwash also contains alcohol.

If a Christian wants to avoid alcohol because they think it is evil, they must make sure to avoid liquid medications and make sure to ask your pharmacist if alcohol is found in your prescription medicines(tablet or capsule form medication is usually alcohol free).

But as we already know, Paul told Timothy that using alcohol for medical purposes(his infirmities) is fine.(1 Tim 5:23)

And the Greek word used for Wine here(and it's the same word used for Wine in the entire New Testament. New Wine is a different Greek word sometimes) is οἶνος (oinos). It's root word origin comes from comes from the fiery wine of God's wrath for which is represented as mixing up and giving to those God is about to punish by their own folly and drunken madness.

And we already know the root meaning of the Hebrew word for wine and banqueting יַיִן (yah'·yin). No way you can say it means non-alcoholic wine. It comes from a root word meaning to effervesce, to emit small bubbles of gas, as a carbonated or fermenting liquid. Lol, and carbonated sodas were not the rage in ancient Israel, wine was.

[Servant89]

With those that resist the word of God, you can not win. They will accuse you if you go north and they will accuse you if you go south. Jesus put it like this (notice the comparison, doing the opposite did not please them).

Luke 7:33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

Clearly Jesus was not drinking water when they accused him of being a drunk. Clearly he meant to say the opposite of what he stated in verse 33 (meaning he came drinking wine with sinners). Sinners do not serve grape juice... do they? But it is written also, when confronted with deciding to select the word of God or traditions of men, most people prefer to stick to the traditions of men. Good luck with that. Mat 15, Mar 7.

Why would Jesus keep a commandment of men like total abstinence from alcohol that is nowhere to be found in Scripture (except for levitical priest before entering the Tabernacle).? Why would he do that? To please future protestant traditions? I don't think so.

Shalom

[jandl]

Seriously? You are kidding me right? You want hard facts? How's this:

Jhn 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: [but] thou hast kept the good wine until now.

The guests were drunk...on what? juice?

Haha, wow! That's hard facts? Verse 10: "Every man at the beginning doth set forth GOOD (unfermented) wine; and when men have well DRUNK...." Are you trying to tell me that people get DRUNK or intoxicated off of unfermented wine? Read your bible. DRUNK, in that verse, has NOTHING to do with intoxication, but rather, "have well drunk" of it, or tasted it and got aquainted with it. "When men HAVE well drunk..." That is an act of drinking, not a STATE of BEING drunk. The english is TOTALLY against your argument. You saw the word DRUNK and you ASSUMED, once again (I should be getting used to this), that that HAD to mean when they GOT or BECAME drunk (intoxicated), when it did not mean that.
Not a hard fact...Sorry!

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Haha, wow! That's hard facts? Verse 10: "Every man at the beginning doth set forth GOOD (unfermented) wine; and when men have well DRUNK...." Are you trying to tell me that people get DRUNK or intoxicated off of unfermented wine? Read your bible. DRUNK, in that verse, has NOTHING to do with intoxication, but rather, "have well drunk" of it, or tasted it and got aquainted with it. "When men HAVE well drunk..." That is an act of drinking, not a STATE of BEING drunk. The english is TOTALLY against your argument. You saw the word DRUNK and you ASSUMED, once again (I should be getting used to this), that that HAD to mean when they GOT or BECAME drunk (intoxicated), when it did not mean that.
Not a hard fact...Sorry!

Hi Jandl,

I'm a lifetime abstainer, but you need to read several of these posts. Nobody is assuming based on the English of "well drunk"; they are conveying the original Greek manuscript meanings from the inspired autographs.

This is where you should humbly receive correction and then maintain your abstinence if so led. The Greek indicates fermented wine, as does hermeneutics.