Be not be drunk with wine... wine thread.

[kay-gee]

How about anesthesia? Is that a sin? IF a pilot is not allowed to fly because he is under the influence of anesthesia, is that a sin? How many people tell their surgeons: "I am a saint, I do not take anesthesia, sorry, I am hollier than the rest, I am different."

Since the Bible doesn't say much about it, I can't comment. However Jesus did refuse to take that stuff before he was crucified. That aside though, I see no correlation between something that is a legitimit medical procedure to perform operations, and the partaking of something that is completely voluntary and unnecessary. Noone HAS to drink wine. We live in a different world than first century Palestine. We have millions of non-intoxicating drink options.

all the best...

[notuptome]

Kay,

I respect your conviction. I do not see why you continue to insist this... Christ made, and drank wine. Even if you believe it was Welches (from the refrigerator, I presume) then He made, and distributed sin...

This is not scriptural.

Scripture does say that being drunken is a sin. Why would Christ contribute to anothers sin? How could Christ be blameless if He contributed to another mans sin? Very interesting paradox.

How do we describe the piety and holiness of Christ in the context of drinking alcoholic wine? There were in Christs day as there are today alternatives.

Is it right for Christians to fear offending sinners through their desire to be separated unto the Lord? Is the righteousness of Christ an offense to sinners?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Frecs]

Scripture is clear: the wine Jesus made was deemed better than what had been served throughout the rest of the evening--and that was good stuff as the host usually gave their best first and once everyone was too drunk to care, served the lesser quality wine. Jesus' wine was very good according to the accounts. What does that mean? It wasn't grape juice and it wasn't low alcoholic. It was GOOD. Jesus made it to be served. Jesus was without sin.

[kay-gee]

1 Corinthians 11:21-23

21for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. 22Don't you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? Certainly not!

Just one additional scripture, as if scripture made any difference, proving that it's not grape juice being consumed at the Lord's supper.

It also appears that Paul was chastizing them for that. In fact in verse 20 of that chapter, he say they WERE NOT coming together for the Lords Supper. It seems they were mistaking the Lords Supper for a common meal. Some were over eating and some drunk. Jesus told us fruit of the vine. He said that for a reason. It allows us to use grape juice.

all the best...

[notuptome]

1 Corinthians 11:21-23

21for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. 22Don't you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? Certainly not!

Just one additional scripture, as if scripture made any difference, proving that it's not grape juice being consumed at the Lord's supper.

I do not see how you can conclude that for the communion they were not using grape juice. The drunkeness was taking place before the communion not during. They were having a pot luck dinner without sharing with those who were too poor to bring their own pot. Do not overlook the fact that God was judging those who were eating and drinking unworthily. They were getting dead or getting ill and some were very weak spiritually. 1 Cor 11:29-32

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[notuptome]

Scripture is clear: the wine Jesus made was deemed better than what had been served throughout the rest of the evening--and that was good stuff as the host usually gave their best first and once everyone was too drunk to care, served the lesser quality wine. Jesus' wine was very good according to the accounts. What does that mean? It wasn't grape juice and it wasn't low alcoholic. It was GOOD. Jesus made it to be served. Jesus was without sin.

How can you possibly draw that conclusion? Perhaps it was good because it was fresh, wholesome, and without sin. It was doubtless made like the Saviour Who created it, with purity and holiness not seen in the world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[embankmentlb]

Justify Yourself over God, whatever makes you happy. I can only offer up the relevant scriptures.

I do not see how you can conclude that for the communion they were not using grape juice. The drunkeness was taking place before the communion not during. They were having a pot luck dinner without sharing with those who were too poor to bring their own pot. Do not overlook the fact that God was judging those who were eating and drinking unworthily. They were getting dead or getting ill and some were very weak spiritually. 1 Cor 11:29-32

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Frecs]

How can you possibly draw that conclusion? Perhaps it was good because it was fresh, wholesome, and without sin. It was doubtless made like the Saviour Who created it, with purity and holiness not seen in the world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Oh, yeah, sure Roger. When was the last time you were at a party with people drinking alcoholic wine and have them give praise to fresh, wholesome, Welchs? Get real.

[Servant89]

Since the Bible doesn't say much about it, I can't comment. However Jesus did refuse to take that stuff before he was crucified. That aside though, I see no correlation between something that is a legitimit medical procedure to perform operations, and the partaking of something that is completely voluntary and unnecessary. Noone HAS to drink wine. We live in a different world than first century Palestine. We have millions of non-intoxicating drink options. all the best...

Yeah but none of those drinks put gladness in the heart of men like wine does.

Ps 104:15 And wine that maketh glad the heart of man,

Ohh, I forgot, getting glad is being drunk. So, let change the Bible (I am speaking as a fool). Yeah lets change it because clearly God did not know what he was talking about when the wrote his Word. Lets change it like this:

Change it from: Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

To: Eph 5:18 And do not even try a little sip of wine, stay away from it 100% of the time; because that is how Christians are made perfect, through a long list of do's and don'ts;

And we certainly have to change the word of God here too:

1 Tim 3:3 And they, like the rest of the church, should not even taste wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

1 Tim 3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, and practice total abstinence from wine like everyone else is required to do in the church, not greedy of filthy lucre;

Tit 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, and should never ever taste wine like all Christians do, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

Tit 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, never ever tasting wine like it is required of the rest of the church, teachers of good things;

Jesus got along with prostitutes and thieves and sinners, but he locked horns constantly with the self righteous which have a tendency to add laws to what God already said (taking the place of God). That is why Jesus said to them:

Mat 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Jesus was at war with those that took his place. Satan, get ye behind, Jesus is #1 and the only one that can issue moral laws.

2000 years ago, the people of God washed their hands before eating. History records that. Today science tells us there are germs in our hands. Shall I use that to introduce a moral law that says that Christians are backslidding when they eat with unclean hands? NO. Why not? Because it is written:

Isa 8:20 To the law and the testimony, if they speak not according to this word, there is no light in them.

Peace to those that love his word above traditions of men.

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

This isn't a "what" thing; it's a "how" thing. The admonition to not be drunk to excess would potentially presume non-excessive consumption, and would be pointless for abstainers. I'm an abstainer, but it's not compulsory or clearly exemplified by/in the Word.

[Amos_with_goats]

I is kind of freaky how naturally you can re-write these verses..

Be careful with that! If anyone from Thomas-Nelson calls... do us all a favor and DO NOT answer.

Yeah but none of those drinks put gladness in the heart of men like wine does.

Ps 104:15 And wine that maketh glad the heart of man,

Ohh, I forgot, getting glad is being drunk. So, let change the Bible (I am speaking as a fool). Yeah lets change it because clearly God did not know what he was talking about when the wrote his Word. Lets change it like this:

Change it from: Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

To: Eph 5:18 And do not even try a little sip of wine, stay away from it 100% of the time; because that is how Christians are made perfect, through a long list of do's and don'ts;

And we certainly have to change the word of God here too:

1 Tim 3:3 And they, like the rest of the church, should not even taste wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

1 Tim 3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, and practice total abstinence from wine like everyone else is required to do in the church, not greedy of filthy lucre;

Tit 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, and should never ever taste wine like all Christians do, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

Tit 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, never ever tasting wine like it is required of the rest of the church, teachers of good things;

Jesus got along with prostitutes and thieves and sinners, but he locked horns constantly with the self righteous which have a tendency to add laws to what God already said (taking the place of God). That is why Jesus said to them:

Mat 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Jesus was at war with those that took his place. Satan, get ye behind, Jesus is #1 and the only one that can issue moral laws.

2000 years ago, the people of God washed their hands before eating. History records that. Today science tells us there are germs in our hands. Shall I use that to introduce a moral law that says that Christians are backslidding when they eat with unclean hands? NO. Why not? Because it is written:

Isa 8:20 To the law and the testimony, if they speak not according to this word, there is no light in them.

Peace to those that love his word above traditions of men.

[Servant89]

I is kind of freaky how naturally you can re-write these verses..

Be careful with that! If anyone from Thomas-Nelson calls... do us all a favor and DO NOT answer.

It is worse than freaky, much much worse. I was speaking as a fool indeed.

Shalom

[Servant89]

There are a lot of practices that we can do, that fall out of the norm, and that are all ok, as long as we do them as a free will offering to the Lord. For example:

1. I can decide never to get marry. That is a beautiful thing to do. But if I teach that (like Rome), it becomes a doctrine of devils.

2. I can decide to be vegetarian, there are lots of Scriptures to back that lifestyle as a free will offerring. But if I teach that as a vehicle to reach a higher spiritual realm, it becomes a doctrine of devils.

1 TIM 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

3. I can decide to sing only a capella, that is a beautiful thing too. Someone ought to do it, someone ought to worship God a capella every day!!!!

4. I can decide to wash my hands before eating, that is a good practice too. But to teach it as a way of being more spiritual or more pleasing to God?... that changes things.

Shalom

[embankmentlb]

Matthew 11
18For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' 19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' But wisdom is proved right by her actions."

[kay-gee]

There are a lot of practices that we can do, that fall out of the norm, and that are all ok, as long as we do them as a free will offering to the Lord. For example:

1. I can decide never to get marry. That is a beautiful thing to do. But if I teach that (like Rome), it becomes a doctrine of devils.

2. I can decide to be vegetarian, there are lots of Scriptures to back that lifestyle as a free will offerring. But if I teach that as a vehicle to reach a higher spiritual realm, it becomes a doctrine of devils.

1 TIM 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

3. I can decide to sing only a capella, that is a beautiful thing too. Someone ought to do it, someone ought to worship God a capella every day!!!!

4. I can decide to wash my hands before eating, that is a good practice too. But to teach it as a way of being more spiritual or more pleasing to God?... that changes things.

Shalom

Great post. Thanks

all the best...