Be not be drunk with wine... wine thread.

[Frecs]

Frecs you confuse me sometimes. Are you suggesting Christ was a drunkard?

It is more like a false accusation by people who were clamoring at anything to dis-credit Him.

Have you ever had people say things about you that were not true?

all the best...

They accused him of two things: gluttony and drunkenness.

You say he did not drink wine because he was not a drunkard. I'm saying that conclusion makes as much sense as saying he never ate because he wasn't a glutton.

Jesus was drinking wine. He did not get drunk. Therein lies the difference.

[Frecs]

I don't know how that works either? The scientist who wrote the book was saying that the alcoholic content of wine and other beverages is different.... And fermaldahyde and other chemicals added give it more of a whomp than back in ancient days.... In short there were no additives in ancient wine and there are today.... Which makes todays wine much more intoxicating much quicker.... I will have to find the book and type in an excerpt....

yes, I think you are going to have to prove to me that today's wine contains formaldahyde because formaldahyde is a toxic chemical.

Fermentation is a very simple process. All yeasts and/or bacteria to chow down on the sugars in the liquid changing the sugars to various alcohols and acids. The length of time this process goes determines the amount of alcohol and/or acids. The types of yeast and/or bacteria determines the flavor and whether you get a really nice wine or vinegar. The same process happens to turn milk to yogurt, kefir, or cheese. The same process turns cabbage to saurkraut. The same process turns cucumbers to fermented pickles. The same process turns cabbage and vegetables into kimchi. The same process turns honey water into mead.

And, as mentioned by others, you can't stop the fermentation process...it just happens.

[MaryFreeman]

I have seen folks argue (forgive me if that is not the right word LOL.... It seems that way to me?) about whether or not Jesus drinks wine because after all He is the High Priest of high priests....

Well.... When He was here on earth the first time He did indeed drink wine (not grape juice for petes sake).... Not only that.... He turned water into wine.... And it was indeed wine....

I would like to see someone walk up to a partygoer who had been drinking wine.... Or up to a diner in a fine restaurant and offer them grape juice.... See if they don't notice the difference.... It is an incredibly inane assumption on anyones part that ancient peoples were lacking intellegence and didn't know the difference between wine and grape juice....

(Gen 9:21 AMP) And he drank of the wine and became drunk, and he was uncovered and lay naked in his tent.

This one verse right here shows beyond doubt that Noah was drinking wine.... But also that he became drunk.... Which means.... IMHO.... That he (as the saying goes) had one too many.... Because first one and then the other happened.... He didn't get drunk as he was drinking the wine and the wine was certainly NOT grape juice....

Has anyone ever gotten drunk on GRAPE JUICE? Come on....

So lets ground ourselves in A) the Word of God.... And B)REALITY....

Those who are getting drunk are not drinking grape juice.... Sorry all but that is just plain silly....

(Son 8:2 AMP) I would lead you and bring you into the house of my mother, who would instruct me. I would cause you to drink spiced wine and of the juice of my pomegranates.

(Num 6:3 LITV) He shall separate from wine and fermented drink; he shall not drink vinegar of wine or vinegar of fermented drink; he shall not drink any juice of the grapes; and he shall not eat dry or moist grapes.

In these two examples it is obvious these primitive, barely evolved people knew the difference between wine and juice.... And see in Numbers 6:3 where the one taking the vow of the nazarite couldn't even eat dry grapes (raisins) or moist grapes.... In other words they didn't eat anything (fermented or not) that came from the vine of the grape....

I have no idea why.... But surely someone can agree with me that raisins and grapes don't get anyone drunk....

I am positive that unlike myself there are folks who can handle wine.... Who are responsible and will not drink to excess....

I feel that one or two glasses is an ok amount for those folks....

I also believe it is one too many glasses for me.... As I have failed the excess test I don't feel as if I should consume any alcohol at any time....

But it is not a sin to have a glass of wine with ones dinner....

As far as Jesus being the High Priest (and yes He does continuously intercede for us.... So I guess you could say He is working) and not drinking wine.... He stated at the last supper that He would not be drinking it again until He drinks it new with us at the Wedding feast....

So no He doesn't drink wine....

But when He was here.... He drank wine.... Not grape juice.... Wine....

[notuptome]

So, his job isn't done? He isn't sitting but standing and working constantly as the priests of old? Seriously? You might want to reconsider that...

His work as Redeemer is done at the cross but His work as our intecessor is eternal. Christs work as sanctifier is ongoing.

When was a priest not to drink wine? Always? or when they were in the Holy of Holies? What did they do in the Holy of Holies?

Only the high preist entered the holy of holies and that one time a year but none of the preists were to enter the tabernacle having drunk wine or strong drink.

Gen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he [was] the priest of the most high God.
Eze 44:21 Neither shall any priest drink wine, when they enter into the inner court.
Mat 11:19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' But wisdom is proved right by her actions." (If you say he was drinking juice, how was he called a drunkard? Perhaps he wasn't eating either since they called him a glutton.)

Everytime you see wine you see an alcoholic beverage i do not. I see wine that is more akin to grape juice unless the text specifically states that it was fermented and moveth.

Christ was falsely accused by the Pharaisees of many things. Will you accept their falsehood or look upon Christ kindly and see Him as harmless?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[MaryFreeman]

yes, I think you are going to have to prove to me that today's wine contains formaldahyde because formaldahyde is a toxic chemical.

Fermentation is a very simple process. All yeasts and/or bacteria to chow down on the sugars in the liquid changing the sugars to various alcohols and acids. The length of time this process goes determines the amount of alcohol and/or acids. The types of yeast and/or bacteria determines the flavor and whether you get a really nice wine or vinegar. The same process happens to turn milk to yogurt, kefir, or cheese. The same process turns cabbage to saurkraut. The same process turns cucumbers to fermented pickles. The same process turns cabbage and vegetables into kimchi. The same process turns honey water into mead.

And, as mentioned by others, you can't stop the fermentation process...it just happens.

Let me make myself clear.... I am not trying to prove anything to anyone....

I am trying to see what others make of what I read....

I am not a wine maker so I have no clue.... I do know there are wines with additives in them....

I know that in the past folks have put such things as formaldehyde in wine (which is why a church I went to in my youth switched brands to a Jewish wine)....

Anything else I will have to google....

[Frecs]

Okay, MaryFreeman,

Did a quick google search. Here's the scoop: methanol (which in chemical reactions will break down into formaldhyde and then formic acid) is present in very small amounts in in the fermentation process of fermenting grains or fruits high in pectins (such as grapes--dark grapes more than white). The amount is very low, naturally there, and not added to up the alcohol content because it is dangerous at higher levels. Distillation actually is dangerous because of the presence of higher levels of methanol which must be siphoned off before bottling. I found the abstract for one study from 1975 that included the following paragraph:

The use of commercial pectic enzyme preparations does increase the methanol content of wines, though more so for red varieties. Though the use of these preparations increased the methanol content proportionately more for white varieties, the final methanol content is less than that for similarly treated red varieties. The use of these preparations increased the methanol content of red wines during the early stages of fermentation.

No mention of it increasing the alcohol content of the finished product.

And, yes, there are additives used in the fermentation process of wine to enhance the flavor.

All that to say this: wine today is no more or less alcoholic than wine from Biblical times.

[nzyr]

The obvious answer is that there is no scripture to rely on! Why is it so hard for people to read the Bible & use it accordingly? Sad but not surprising.

There's plenty of scriptures to rely upon. The bible doesn't condemn drinking. It condemns drunkeness. And not all people who drink are drunkards.

[MaryFreeman]

Okay, MaryFreeman,

Did a quick google search. Here's the scoop: methanol (which in chemical reactions will break down into formaldhyde and then formic acid) is present in very small amounts in in the fermentation process of fermenting grains or fruits high in pectins (such as grapes--dark grapes more than white). The amount is very low, naturally there, and not added to up the alcohol content because it is dangerous at higher levels. Distillation actually is dangerous because of the presence of higher levels of methanol which must be siphoned off before bottling. I found the abstract for one study from 1975 that included the following paragraph:

The use of commercial pectic enzyme preparations does increase the methanol content of wines, though more so for red varieties. Though the use of these preparations increased the methanol content proportionately more for white varieties, the final methanol content is less than that for similarly treated red varieties. The use of these preparations increased the methanol content of red wines during the early stages of fermentation.

No mention of it increasing the alcohol content of the finished product.

And, yes, there are additives used in the fermentation process of wine to enhance the flavor.

All that to say this: wine today is no more or less alcoholic than wine from Biblical times.

I did a google search too.... Found pretty much the same thing.... So I don't know where the scientist I was reading got his info about wine.... I had thought the controversy in the church I went to was because the winemaker used formaldahyde to preserve the wine.... Formaldahyde was not what I was talking about when speaking of upping the effects of wine.... The scientist I read said the makers use other additives to increase the effects of wine.... Of course he was talking about other alcoholic beverages too.... Like I said I will have to find the book.... But I'm pretty sure he said that there was a difference between the wine and spirits of today and back in Jesus day....

Which doesn't make a lick of difference to me....

I still ain't touchin' it....

[Amos_with_goats]

... Has anyone ever gotten drunk on GRAPE JUICE? Come on....

So lets ground ourselves in A) the Word of God.... And B)REALITY....

Those who are getting drunk are not drinking grape juice.... Sorry all but that is just plain silly........

Bold and underlined... Quote of the day!.

[Frecs]

I did a google search too.... Found pretty much the same thing.... So I don't know where the scientist I was reading got his info about wine.... I had thought the controversy in the church I went to was because the winemaker used formaldahyde to preserve the wine.... Formaldahyde was not what I was talking about when speaking of upping the effects of wine.... The scientist I read said the makers use other additives to increase the effects of wine.... Of course he was talking about other alcoholic beverages too.... Like I said I will have to find the book.... But I'm pretty sure he said that there was a difference between the wine and spirits of today and back in Jesus day....

Which doesn't make a lick of difference to me....

I still ain't touchin' it....

My guess is that the author is trying to deal with the difficult connumdrum of Jesus drinking wine when our culture says that is a sin. See, in Europe, we wouldn't be having this discussion about wine, we'd be having it about caffeine. Different culture. Different mores to reconcile with scripture. Same effort to fit scripture to our mores.

I rarely drink alcohol because of a family propensity to alcohol and drug addiction. I did drink in my early twenties but I got scared when I realized that I don't get hungover from excessive drinking--I could very easily become an alcoholic because the "consequences" were not there for me. I learned in Biochem that the reason is I lack a certain enzyme. Some would call me lucky. I call me an easy-addict. I also don't do pain meds for the same reason.

What we have to do is separate our personal or cultural mores from scriptural mandates. It's perfectly okay to say that "yes, they drank fermented wine in Biblical days", "no, it is not a sin", and "I choose not to." We don't have to start drinking wine just because we acknowledge that Jesus did.

[kay-gee]

You've made your case well. I can't really argue with it. Just one thing. Please don't use this as license for drunkeness. We all know of the cost of alcohol and its abuse. The lives the families etc...Few things will blow Christian witness out of the water faster than drunkeness.

If you can live without it, all the better. If you must drink, please do so responsibly.

all the best...

[embankmentlb]

That is true, many scriptures against drunkeness. My debate is with those calling wine grape juice & those that say Holy people, including Jesus, did not drink wine. They then use that as a basis to tell others not to drink wine in moderation. That is unfounded in scripture.

There's plenty of scriptures to rely upon. The bible doesn't condemn drinking. It condemns drunkeness. And not all people who drink are drunkards.

[notuptome]

Bold and underlined... Quote of the day!.

You whimsical goat herder you.

If a person was diabetic and drank grape juice they could become like a drunk under the influence of very high blood sugar?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Frecs]

You've made your case well. I can't really argue with it. Just one thing. Please don't use this as license for drunkeness. We all know of the cost of alcohol and its abuse. The lives the families etc...Few things will blow Christian witness out of the water faster than drunkeness.

If you can live without it, all the better. If you must drink, please do so responsibly.

all the best...

Who is using it as an excuse for drunkenness? Not one person, here, that's for sure. What we are making a case for is not condemning someone for having a glass of wine as long as they aren't getting drunk.

[Frecs]

If a person was diabetic and drank grape juice they could become like a drunk under the influence of very high blood sugar?

I've never heard anyone compare a excessive blood sugar in a diabetic to drunkenness. They don't get "giddy"...they get sick.

Hypoglycemia (extremely low blood glucose) might be mistaken for drunkenness because of the beligerant behavior often observed during this crisis event.