Grape juice has been around as long as grapes have been in existence.Originally Posted by nzyr
There have been pieces of ancient pottery found from prior to Christ that portray servants squeezing grape juice directly into the Pharaoh's cup.
Read writings of 1st Century writers who record methods of preserving wine from the grape in its nonfermented state.
I believe it had alcohol in it. It was real wine.
I respectfully disagree. If one puts an alcoholic drink into the hands of Jesus, or has His giving others alcohol, they may as well change their songs to reflect the alcoholic they are trusting in.
You cannot come to that conclusion using the Word of God.
This any better?...
Oh victory in Jesus
Who gave me my Seagrams
I'll toast him and roast him
As we drink one more
I'll lift my glass toward heaven
And thank him for my slight buzz
Then I will tell of his great love
for Mad Dog number 9.
More scripture, less rhetoric please.
For what mortal has ever heard the voice of the living God speaking out of fire, as we have, and survived? ~ Deuteronomy 5:26
If you're not prepared to risk your very life for your "enemy" you have no right to speak to him of love. ~ Daughter
Many say they are called... but I am pretty convinced that with many of them it was the wrong number. ~ Project Peter
I most certainly can. Jesus did not turn the water at the marriage of Cana into grape juice.
Coffee Break
There are more instructions and evidence in the Bible justifying a vegetarian lifestyle than one of total abstinence from alcohol. Are you vegetarian? Do you live in tents?
That instruction is to be sober. Now if you interpret that word “sober” to mean “not to be drunk”, we agree. That is a good instruction. The difference is that to you, whosoever drinks half a Budwiser in one day is a drunk.
I agree, I rather be drunk in the Spirit than drunk with alcohol. But again the instruction in that verse is very clear, very specific, why don’t you quote the Bible? Let us see it !!! It says: Eph 5:18 Be not drunk with wine WHICH IS EXCESS !!!! If the HS is exhorting us not to be drunk, why would the Holy Spirit take the time to explain that when he said DRUNK he meant drinking an alcoholic beverage IN EXCESS? Why would the Holy Spirit take the time to explain it like that, if he really meant total abstinence, why would he do that? That is clear instruction that he meant to warn about the EXCESS of drinking alcohol, not a law of total abstinence from alcohol.
Again, do you want to get my attention? Then stop giving me your opinion and quote the WORD. That word that you referenced there, is very specific and in line with the rest of the Bible (Isa 28). It said that there is a law for the priest of practicing total abstinence from alcohol, (watch out !!, here it comes. !!!) but that law is only for the day before ministering in the Tabernacle, not all the time.
Lev 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
And the reason given to the Levite is the same reason given to the king and that reason is explained in Isa 28.
Isa 28: 7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. 8 For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean. 9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine?
Yes we are priests, and like priests, we should not preach or teach under the influence either. From the Lord’s offering God told the Levites that they could take the best for them. Here is how God told them.
Num 18: 8 And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Behold, I also have given thee the charge of mine heave offerings of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel; unto thee have I given them by reason of the anointing, and to thy sons, by an ordinance for ever.
9 This shall be thine of the most holy things, reserved from the fire: every oblation of theirs, every meat offering of theirs, and every sin offering of theirs, and every trespass offering of theirs which they shall render unto me, shall be most holy for thee and for thy sons.
10 In the most holy place shalt thou eat it; every male shall eat it: it shall be holy unto thee.
11 And this is thine; the heave offering of their gift, with all the wave offerings of the children of Israel: I have given them unto thee, and to thy sons and to thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: every one that is clean in thy house shall eat of it.
12 All the best of the oil, and all the best of the wine (remember, the old wine is better, Luk 5:39), and of the wheat, the firstfruits of them which they shall offer unto the LORD, them have I given thee.
So, they were commanded to drink the best of the wine (the old wine is better).
That is exactly true, we are not to touch the unclean thing. But the one, the ONLY ONE !!! that declares something unclean in God Almighty, not you, not your pastor, nor anyone else. In Lev 11 there is a long list of things that God declared unclean and you will not find in there that wine or strong drink are unclean. You will not find it anywhere in the Bible. As a matter of fact, Rom 14 that you quote later declares wine as clean. God ordered Moses to pour wine and strong drink on the altar for an offering, God will not ask something unclean to placed in his altar. The blood of Jesus cleaned all those things in Lev 11, and yet, for some, after Jesus cleansed all those unclean things, now somehow alcohol is now polluted. The Greek word for that is Baloney.
If wine and strong drink were not unclean before Jesus shed his blood, why would it be evil today? Why would Jesus make wine at a feast, when a feast is made for laughter and alcoholic wine (is there any other kind?) makes people happy?
What part of these verses don’t you understand? The red or the blue?
Mat 15: 10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man;
Col 2: 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the usingafter the commandments and doctrines of men?
Don’t change the subject here. The issue here is Christians that drink one beer alone in their home… That, to you is a sin. Let’s talk about that, the issue of total abstinence as a law of God.
I cant believe you are quoting Rom 14 !!! That chapter states that the one that is vegetarian or practices total abstinence from alcohol is weak in the faith (verse 2).. That chapter states that there is nothing unclean of itself. That chapter states we should not judge each other based on who is consuming what, the one that abstain should not judge the one that consumes it. The context of that chapter is not only about meat, it includes wine, for it states in verse 21:
Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
So, when that chapter declares that there is nothing unclean of itself, it is certainly referring to wine, because wine is part of the conversation. If you are going to quote Rom 14:21 to prove total abstinence from alcohol is mandated by God, please, preach the whole verse, include a vegetarian diet too as a commandment from God. Right?
Yes it is. Yes it is.
Well, the Levitical priests did, they were commanded to drink it.
Shalom
2 Chronicles 7:15-16
Actually, we can't limit this to the Levitical priests. Jesus commanded us all to drink the fruit of the vine during Communion as a representation for His blood. He was not talking about grape juice, nor did He drink grape juice. It was wine.
The church I attend serves grape juice which is no problem, wine (per scripture) or juice... it's a representation, a symbol so I see no reason to be upset either way. I have attended churches that use wine and some that use juice... Communion is accomplished/obeyed either way as we are instructed.
When a church says it's a sin to drink any alcohol... seems they've torn all the pages out of their Bible's that inform us that it's not a sin to drink alcohol. The Bible tells us it's a sin to abuse the alcohol... church leaders are instructed in the proper consumption of alcohol... the Bible is VERY specific even for church leaders... WHY are church leaders allowed to drink alcohol according to scripture but SO MANY FORBID the people attending their church(es) from drinking alcohol in a biblical way?
I don't get it.
Slug1--out
~Do not quench the Spirit ~ 1 Thessalonians 5:19~
~"So what hardship are you willing to endure, to see My will accomplished through you?"~
~Your relationship isn't knowing "ABOUT" GOD! Relationship is to "KNOW" GOD,
so that in the end and you stand before Him for the first time in heaven… HE KNOWS YOU~
~Do we, as Christians witness Jesus to the lost because we love Jesus? Or do we witness Jesus to the lost because we love them as Jesus loves them?~
~A prompting from God means that you are to DO. Thinking, causes you to... NOT DO!~
~Being on the tall mountain is where "you" go, to meet with God. Being in the deep valley is where "God" goes, to meet with you!~
There is not one verse in the entire Bible that tells man to drink alcohol socially or recreationally... NOT ONE!
Citizen
**
You need to realize if it was nonalcoholic they would not say they were well drunk either. You don't say that about someone drinking water .
Men on ships had to have alcohol or they would not have survived without it keeping the water safe.
That goes for grape juice too , it would not last long enough to even have those large jars full. It would spoil in a day.
Luke 6
41“And why worry about a speck in your friend’s eye when you have a log in your own? 42How can you think of saying, ‘Friend, let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,’ when you can’t see past the log in your own eye? Hypocrite!
First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s eye.
Jesus Christ son of God have mercy on us
Senior Member
The Dangers of Moderate Drinking
By John B. Gough
John B. Gough (1817-1886) Born in Sandgate, Kent, England in 1817, Gough immigrated to the United States when he was only twelve years old. His mother and sister also came to America. His mother died of a stroke and Gough, despondent, began to drink. He married in 1838. The couple had a daughter but unfortunately, both mother and child died within days of each other. By the age of 25, Gough was unemployed, homeless, and a confirmed drunkard. In 1842 he attended a temperance meeting in Worcester, Massachusetts, where he took a pledge to totally abstain from liquor. He began to tell his story to eager audiences and soon embarked on a career of lecturing against the evils of drink. During his career, Gough delivered some 9,600 lectures to more than nine million people in America, Canada, England, Scotland, and Ireland.
When he died in 1886, the New York Times wrote that he "was probably better known in this country and in Great Britain than any other public speaker." Mr. Gough was one of this country's most influential social reformers who helped to solve one of America's most pressing problems. He was a witnessing Christian, a personal friend of Charles Spurgeon, and shared the pulpit in Boston (1877) during a "Temperance Day" meeting with D. L. Moody.
One favorite argument of young men in reference to the use of intoxicating drink is, "When I find out that it is doing me an injury, then I will give it up." That is making an admission and coming to a conclusion.
The admission is true; the conclusion is false. You admit it may injure you, and when it has injured you, then you will quit it. You won't use such an argument in reference to any other matter. "I will put my hand into the den of a rattlesnake, and when I find out that he has stuck his fangs into me I will draw it out and get it cured as quickly as possible." There is no common sense in that.
Young men, beware of this thing, because it is a snare. It is fearfully deceptive. Every man who drinks intends to be a moderate drinker. I have said this over and over again, because I believe it to be important. Every man who becomes intemperate does so by a course of argument from the beginning all the way down to ruin. Young men, you say, "When I find out that it is injuring me, then I will give it up." Is that sensible?
I once heard of a pilot who said he could pilot a vessel into Boston Harbor. "Now," said he to the captain, "I'll stand 'midships, and you can take the helm. I know every rock in this channel - every one of 'em - I know 'em all, and I'll give you warning." By and by the vessel struck upon a rock, and the shock threw everybody down upon the deck. The poor pilot got up, rubbing himself, and said, "Captain, there's one of 'em."
Now we say to young men, "There 's one of them. Hard up your helm before you strike!" That is sensible. If you have struck, haul off and repair damages, and then strike again. Is that sensible? In time the poor old battered hulk will not bear any more damages, and men will bury you, a broken wreck. That is the end of it in many cases. "When I find out that it is injuring me, then I will give it up." Gather all the drunkards of this country together, and ask them every one, "Are you drinking enough to injure you?" A large proportion will declare that they are not. Each one of them has become a drunkard in the sight of God and man before he has become one in his own estimation.
Intoxicating drink is deceptive in its very nature. It reminds me of the fable of the serpent in a circle of fire. A man was passing by, and the snake said to him, "Help me out of my difficulty." "If I do, you'll bite me." "Oh, no, I won't." "I'm afraid to trust you." "Help me out of the fire, or it will consume me, and I promise on my word of honor I won't bite you." The man took the snake out of the fire, and threw it on the ground. Instantly the serpent said, "Now I'll bite you." "But didn't you promise me you wouldn't?" "Yes, but don't you know it's my nature to bite, and I cannot help it." So it is with the drink. It is its nature to bite; it is its nature to deceive.
Young men say (and I have heard them more than once) that they "must sow their wild oats." Remember this, young gentlemen, "Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." If you sow corn, you reap corn. If you sow weeds, you reap weeds. If you sow to the flesh, you will of the flesh reap corruption. But if you sow to the spirit, you will of the spirit reap life everlasting. Ah, young men, look at that reaping, and then contemplate the awful reaping of men today who are reaping as they have sown, in bitterness of spirit and anguish of soul. "When I find out that it is injuring me, then I will give it up."
Surely that is not common sense. Such is the fascination thrown around a man by the power of this habit, that it must have essentially injured him before he will acknowledge the hurt and consent to give it up. Many a man has been struck down in his prosperity, has been sent to prison for crime, before he acknowledged that his evil habit was injuring him. I remember riding from Buffalo to Niagara Fails, and I said to a gentleman, "What river is that, sir?" "That," he said, "is Niagara River." "It is a beautiful stream," said I, "bright, smooth, and glassy; how far off are the rapids?" "Only a few miles," was the reply. "Is it possible that only a few miles from us we shall find the water in the turbulence which it must show when near the rapids?" "You will find it so, sir." And so I found it, and that first sight of Niagara Falls I shall never forget. Now, launch your bark on that river; the water is smooth, beautiful, and glassy. There is a ripple at the bow of your boat, and the silvery wake it leaves behind adds to your enjoyment. You set out on your pleasure excursion. Down the stream you glide; oars, sails, and helm in proper trim. Suddenly some one cries out from the bank, "Young men, ahoy!"
"What is it?"
"The rapids are below you."
"Ha, ha! We have heard of the rapids, but we are not such fools as to get into them. When we find we are going too fast, then we shall up with the helm and steer to the shore; we will set the mast in the socket, hoist the sail, and speed to land. Then on, boys, don't be alarmed, there's no danger." "Young men, ahoy there!" "What is it?" "The rapids are below you." "Ha, ha? We will laugh and, quaff; all things delight us. What care we for the future? No man ever saw it. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof. We will enjoy life while we may; we will catch pleasure as it flies. This is enjoyment, time enough to steer out of danger when we are sailing too swiftly with the current." "Young men, ahoy!" "What is it?" "Beware, beware! The rapids are below you." Now you feel them! See the water foaming all around! See how fast you pass that point! Up with the helm! Now turn! Pull hard; quick, quick! Pull for your lives! Pull till the blood starts from the nostrils and the veins stand like whipcord upon the brow. Set the mast in the socket, hoist the sail! Ah, ah, it is too late; faster and faster you near the awful cataract, and then, shrieking, cursing, howling, praying, over you go. Thousands launch their barks in smooth water and realize no danger till on the verge of ruin, boasting all the while to the last, "When I find out that it is injuring me, then I will give it up." The power of this habit, I repeat, is fascinating, is deceptive, and men may go on arguing and coming to conclusions while on the way down to destruction.
-Taken from Platform Echoes, John B. Gough. Pages 93-97, 1886.
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Revelation 22:17)
Why was this never mentioned at any time in 1900 years of church history until the temperance movement? Why does this seem to only be a issue in the same country as the temperance movement?
For what mortal has ever heard the voice of the living God speaking out of fire, as we have, and survived? ~ Deuteronomy 5:26
If you're not prepared to risk your very life for your "enemy" you have no right to speak to him of love. ~ Daughter
Many say they are called... but I am pretty convinced that with many of them it was the wrong number. ~ Project Peter
2 Chronicles 7:15-16
Jesus's drinking of the fruit of the vine was public... thus He was accused of being a winebibber.
1) He cannot be accused of being a winebibber if wine was not alcoholic.
2) He could not be accused of being a winebibber if He never drank alcoholic wine.
3) He could not be accused of being a winebibber if He drank privately.
Also... the scripture about church leadership explains that they can "NOT BE GIVEN TO WINE" (1 Tim 3:8, Titus 1:7 and 2:3)... so let me ask you this... does this scripture state the "location" they can drink or does it also specifically state that any drinking must be done in private and in secret?
Define "recreational" because since you put it with the word socially, I will assume recreational means... freely in the privacy of one's home, correct?
If the Bible instructs CHURCH LEADERS how to drink... Not Be Given To Wine means... drink responsibly. Then where are they to do this?
Slug1--out
~Do not quench the Spirit ~ 1 Thessalonians 5:19~
~"So what hardship are you willing to endure, to see My will accomplished through you?"~
~Your relationship isn't knowing "ABOUT" GOD! Relationship is to "KNOW" GOD,
so that in the end and you stand before Him for the first time in heaven… HE KNOWS YOU~
~Do we, as Christians witness Jesus to the lost because we love Jesus? Or do we witness Jesus to the lost because we love them as Jesus loves them?~
~A prompting from God means that you are to DO. Thinking, causes you to... NOT DO!~
~Being on the tall mountain is where "you" go, to meet with God. Being in the deep valley is where "God" goes, to meet with you!~
It did not say they were well drunk. It says they had well drunk. Big difference.
Were well drunk means they were plastered. Had well drunk means they had drank in abundance.
Had the alcohol been alcoholic in content, and they had 'well drunk,' no doubt they would have been well drunk. And had they 'well drunk' of an alcoholic wine and Jesus had provided more alcohol for them, He would have made them drunker. Jesus did not come to make men drunkards, He came to save them. He did not come to help them further down the road to hell.John 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
Had He made an alcoholic wine, then He is a cruel God for sentencing drunkards to hell for something that He had given them that caused them to become drunkards.
No, Jesus did not give man alcohol, nor did He ever give license to man to drink alcohol socially or recreation-ally.
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