Be not be drunk with wine... wine thread.

[CommanderRobey]

Why was this never mentioned at any time in 1900 years of church history until the temperance movement? Why does this seem to only be a issue in the same country as the temperance movement?

Silenced by the Catholic church.

We have books in our libraries by men of the first Century AD that verify that Christians of that day considered those who drank alcoholic wine to be barbaric in nature. We have recorded in historical books, accounts of methods of preserving the nonfermented wine in that state for months.

I, myself, tried one of the methods that was recorded in a book by Pliny the Elder and found that two years later, the wine that I made using Pliny's instructions was still as fresh as the day that I had squeezed the juice from the grape. Drinking a 14oz glass of it in 10 seconds, I did not experience one bit of intoxication.

Yes, there were indeed methods for preserving the wine in its not alcoholic state.

The Bible tells us that the juice of the grape was indeed called wine.

Proverbs 3:10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.

Isaiah 65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.

New wine was nothing more than the juice of the grape.

[CommanderRobey]

Jesus's drinking of the fruit of the vine was public... thus He was accused of being a winebibber.

1) He cannot be accused of being a winebibber if wine was not alcoholic.
2) He could not be accused of being a winebibber if He never drank alcoholic wine.
3) He could not be accused of being a winebibber if He drank privately.

Also... the scripture about church leadership explains that they can "NOT BE GIVEN TO WINE" (1 Tim 3:8, Titus 1:7 and 2:3)... so let me ask you this... does this scripture state the "location" they can drink or does it also specifically state that any drinking must be done in private and in secret?

Define "recreational" because since you put it with the word socially, I will assume recreational means... freely in the privacy of one's home, correct?

If the Bible instructs CHURCH LEADERS how to drink... Not Be Given To Wine means... drink responsibly. Then where are they to do this?

People accused Jesus falsely all the time. They falsely accused Him of being a wine drinker. Winebibber is the Greek word oinopotes, a combination of oinos for wine and potes for drink. They did not accuse Him of being a drunk, they accused Him of drinking wine. Had they accused Him of being drunk, the word would have been methuso instead of oinopotes.

And Jesus refuted their foolish accusation of Him drinking wine.

[Slug1]

People accused Jesus falsely all the time. They falsely accused Him of being a wine drinker. Winebibber is the Greek word oinopotes, a combination of oinos for wine and potes for drink. They did not accuse Him of being a drunk, they accused Him of drinking wine. Had they accused Him of being drunk, the word would have been methuso instead of oinopotes.

And Jesus refuted their foolish accusation of Him drinking wine.

He refuted the foolish accusations because there is nothing wrong with drinking the wine. Not that He "was" drinking wine... just that there is nothing wrong with drinking the wine.

You refused to answer my question about church leadership though...

[Amos_with_goats]

The Dangers of Moderate Drinking

By John B. Gough

John B. Gough (1817-1886) Born in Sandgate, Kent, England in 1817, Gough immigrated to the United States when he was only twelve years old. His mother and sister also came to America. His mother died of a stroke and Gough, despondent, began to drink......

The irony is that his mother might have been well served by an occasional glass of wine (to improve vascular health).

[Firefighter]

Silenced by the Catholic church.

We have books in our libraries by men of the first Century AD that verify that Christians of that day considered those who drank alcoholic wine to be barbaric in nature.

Credible source please.

[nzyr]

Jesus commanded us all to drink the fruit of the vine during Communion as a representation for His blood. He was not talking about grape juice, nor did He drink grape juice. It was wine.

He never called it wine. So the fruit of the vine at the last supper could have been grape juice.

[MaryFreeman]

It looks in the NT that church leaders are held to a higher standard...

Titus 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled not soon angry, NOT GIVEN TO WINE, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

1 Timothy 3:2-3 A bishop then must be blameless, ...not given to wine...

1 Timothy 3:8 Likewise the deacons must be grave, ... not given to MUCH wine.

It must be talking about an alcoholic beverage... right?

Why would the HS say that, if the entire church is required to practice TOTAL ABSTINENCE from alcohol?

=====================================

1 Corinthians 11:20 Therefore, when you come together into one place, it is not to eat the Lord's supper.
21 For in eating, everyone takes before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is DRUNK. (wait a minute!... drunk on grape juice?)
22 What ? Have you not houses to eat and to DRINK ? or despise you the church of God and shame them that have not ? What shall I say to you ? Shall I praise you in this ? I praise you not.

Why would the HS say that, if the entire church is required to practice TOTAL ABSTINENCE from alcohol?

Not convinced yet? Read further ... why would the HS warn the church about getting drunk if they did not drink wine?

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

Why would the HS say that, if the entire church is required to practice TOTAL ABSTINENCE from alcohol?

Where is the verse that says: "It is not for the church to drink wine." ?

Shalom

I need to tell my pastor this! He serves grape juice at communion! I must tell him he cannot drink grape juice!

O wait....

Aw man! I'm confused!

[Slug1]

He never called it wine. So the fruit of the vine at the last supper could have been grape juice.

Hahaha... so then it could have been wine... right?

Could'a/would'a/should'a

[MaryFreeman]

Here is a question....

Or....

Maybe two....

Why.... Would new wine be a bad thing to put in an old wine skin???

And....

SINCE bibber=drinker.... And wine = grape juice (LOL)....

Why did the religious leaders of the day have a problem with Jesus drinking His Welches?????

[MaryFreeman]

Ok so below are the Greek AND Hebrew words used in John 2 for wine....

Or whatever it was Jesus turned water into....

Incidentally I think the Welches crowd might find the Hebrew.... Interesting.... In the least....

G3631
οἶνος
oinos
oy'-nos
A primary word (or perhaps of Hebrew origin [H3196]); "wine" (literally or figuratively): - wine.
H3196
יין
yayin
yah'-yin
From an unused root meaning to effervesce; wine (as fermented); by implication intoxication: - banqueting, wine, wine [-bibber].

[quinn]

I admit that I just started reading this thread so I don't know all the points that have been made. So, forgive me if I am repeating.

John 2:1-10 tells a good story, not only about wine, but also how cool Jesus was.

First off, he, his mom and disciples were all invited to a wedding. It wasn't a relative, so none of them had to be invited. As we all know, no one invites a "stick in the mud" to their wedding unless it's a relative.

Then we read that the party ran out of wine. His mother came to him to let him know. He then tells the servants to fill the stone jars with water, which he turns into wine.

Not just any wine, but the best wine best wine of the night.

I don't know if Jesus drank it himself, but he sure didn't see anything wrong with the others drinking it or he wouldn't have made more. If he wanted to judge people and tell them they were sinning, he certainly could have. He didn't. And he probably didn't do anything of the sort before this wedding or he wouldn't have been invited.

Jesus was and is a cool dude. I think debating over wine or grape juice is like the pharasees who used to hold the law more important than the message. But that is merely my humble opinion.

[CommanderRobey]

I admit that I just started reading this thread so I don't know all the points that have been made. So, forgive me if I am repeating.

John 2:1-10 tells a good story, not only about wine, but also how cool Jesus was.

First off, he, his mom and disciples were all invited to a wedding. It wasn't a relative, so none of them had to be invited. As we all know, no one invites a "stick in the mud" to their wedding unless it's a relative.

Then we read that the party ran out of wine. His mother came to him to let him know. He then tells the servants to fill the stone jars with water, which he turns into wine.

Not just any wine, but the best wine best wine of the night.

I don't know if Jesus drank it himself, but he sure didn't see anything wrong with the others drinking it or he wouldn't have made more. If he wanted to judge people and tell them they were sinning, he certainly could have. He didn't. And he probably didn't do anything of the sort before this wedding or he wouldn't have been invited.

Jesus was and is a cool dude. I think debating over wine or grape juice is like the pharasees who used to hold the law more important than the message. But that is merely my humble opinion.

Of course He didn't see anything wrong with the others drinking it... it was not fermented.

[MaryFreeman]

Of course He didn't see anything wrong with the others drinking it... it was not fermented.

My Hebrew New Testament uses the Hebrew word yayin for wine in John 2:3....

The deffinition of the Hebrew word yayin is :

yayin
yah'-yin
From an unused root meaning to effervesce; wine (as fermented); by implication intoxication: - banqueting, wine, wine [-bibber].

It most certainly was fermented.... And apparently intoxicating....

[Servant89]

There is not one verse in the entire Bible that tells man to drink alcohol socially or recreationally... NOT ONE!

There are, but all of them encourage people to drink "wine" and we know that word to you means "grape juice". That is why we fail to communicate. Traditions of men that nullify the word of God... Still alive and well in the church.

Shalom

[Servant89]

Actually, we can't limit this to the Levitical priests. Jesus commanded us all to drink the fruit of the vine during Communion as a representation for His blood. He was not talking about grape juice, nor did He drink grape juice. It was wine.

The church I attend serves grape juice which is no problem, wine (per scripture) or juice... it's a representation, a symbol so I see no reason to be upset either way. I have attended churches that use wine and some that use juice... Communion is accomplished/obeyed either way as we are instructed.

When a church says it's a sin to drink any alcohol... seems they've torn all the pages out of their Bible's that inform us that it's not a sin to drink alcohol. The Bible tells us it's a sin to abuse the alcohol... church leaders are instructed in the proper consumption of alcohol... the Bible is VERY specific even for church leaders... WHY are church leaders allowed to drink alcohol according to scripture but SO MANY FORBID the people attending their church(es) from drinking alcohol in a biblical way?

I don't get it.

Thank you for the correction. Great point.

Shalom