Wow! Nice twisting of the Word of God. No wonder so many fall into the deception of 'I can drink alcoholl."Originally Posted by MaryFreeman
Contrary to your claim, Scripture does not say that the wine Jesus made was watered down. Scripture states that the water was made wine. There was not a drop of water in the wine that Jesus produced for that weadding at Cana.
It si amazing how far you alcohol embracers will go to justify a false doctrine.
Citizen
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Wine
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For other uses, see Wine (disambiguation).
Yellow cartouche Red cartouche
Wine glasses of white (left) and red wines(right).
16th century wine press
Wine boy at a symposium
Wine is an alcoholic beverage, typically made of fermented grape juice.
The Greek Orthodox Church which Has been administering Communion from the beginning of the church, has always used the same sweet alcoholic wine that was used 1500 or more years ago . Wiki also has a section on ancient wine that speaks about how the Greeks are one of the only still using the same grape varieties from 5000 years of wine making history.It has never changed it's practice through the ages as others have modernized from the original start of the Christians who started using communion as the Lord Jesus asked us to do at the Last supper. It is the only one who can claim this in Christendom. I still take communion from a spoon out of the Chalice of wine mixed with bread as do all Eastern Orthodox just as before the church split 1000 years ago.
Luke 6
41“And why worry about a speck in your friend’s eye when you have a log in your own? 42How can you think of saying, ‘Friend, let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,’ when you can’t see past the log in your own eye? Hypocrite!
First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s eye.
Jesus Christ son of God have mercy on us
Citizen
**
I don't know you from anyone. I will try not to be rude, so if this sounds rude then I appologize in advance.
I have met many people who judge others as if they have been given such authority. My understanding of the Bible is that you have not been given that authority. Jesus got mad at the pharasees for doing this very same thing.
No where in the verses that I referenced did it say "unfermented" wine. You have chosen to make it say that because you don't like drinking. If that is what makes you feel good, then by all means, believe it. But to judge others who are clearly reading the same passages is not what Jesus would want you to do.
Things like that are what kept me from getting saved for 38 years in the first place. Then I learned that God and Jesus don't reign down judgement in such a way. My father in law once got on me because he saw a beer in my hand. But for some reason he doesn't see the sin of overeating which has caused him to not only be obese, but develop type 2 diabetes.
Thing is, no one is perfect. If you feel convicted about drinking, then don't drink. Even if it is a sin, maybe God is working on a different part of another person first. He may think that greed or adultry or something else is more important to that particular person and he'll fix the drinking later. No one knows why he works in the way he does, so just let him work. In my limited time as a Christian, I have realized that trying to do God's work for him is futile. I have also learned that passing out judgement in the way that you are doing is exactly what turns people off from Christianity. I wouldn't think that Jesus would want you to make people turn away from him, do you?
You must not be reading the ssame Bible I am. My Bible indeed gives me such authority. It states in John 7:24 that we are to "judge righteous judgment." Since you, and others as well, keep insisting that Jesus drank and gave to man alcoholic wine, I have the authority of God's Word to judge those words you write as being totally false.
guest
Evidently, silence speaks loudest through generic word meanings. I said... generic word meanings. You know.......... Generic.
Yes. So grape juice or wine is OK for holy communion. Both are fruit of the vine so to speak. All of the churches that I have attended used grape juice. And we used these little bitty glasses.
Senior Member
It doesn't have to say "unfermented"....the CONTEXT of the verses will ALWAYS clarify the meaning. Do you always "pull the verses out of context" to get the meaning?
1. The word wine in the Bible is a generic term; sometimes it means grape juice; sometimes it means alcoholic beverages. The following verses prove that the word "wine" can mean fresh grape juice, the fruit of the vine: Deuteronomy 11:14; 2 Chronicles 31:5; Nehemiah 13:15; Proverbs 3:10; Isaiah 16:10; 65:8; 1 Timothy 5:23.
2. The context will always show when "wine" refers to alcoholic beverages. In such cases, God discusses the bad effects of it and warns against it. An example would be Genesis 9, Noah's experience after the Flood. Verse 21, "and he drank of the wine, and was drunken," clearly refers to alcoholic beverage. Proverbs 20:1 speaks of the same thing when it warns us, "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." Alcoholic wine is deceptive; but how? In the very way that people are advocating today, by saying that drinking a little bit will not hurt. Everyone admits that drinking too much is bad; even the liquor companies tell us not to drive and drink, but they insist that a small amount is all right. However, that is the very thing that is deceptive. Who knows how little to drink? Experts tell us that each person is different. It takes an ounce to affect one, while more is necessary for another. The same person will react to alcohol differently, depending on the amount of food he has had, among other things. So, the idea that "a little bit won't hurt" is deceptive, and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise!
Proverbs 23:30-31 refers to alcoholic wine, because it tells us in the previous verse that those who drink it have woe, sorrow, contentions, babbling, wounds without cause, and redness of eyes. What a graphic description of those who "tarry long" at alcoholism. Verses 32-35 continue the same description; context always makes it clear when alcohol is meant.
If "wine" may mean fresh grape juice or alcohol, how can we know which is intended? The context determines the meaning. We can tell when "wine" means fresh grape juice and when it means alcoholic beverage by reading the context, just as we have done in the previous paragraphs.
THE BIBLE AND WINEDo you know what really turns me off? What turns me off is to see someone who names the Name of Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour and advocates drinking beverage alcohol and tries to justify their behavior by pulling Scripture out of context. Worldly Christians turn me off. One foot in the world and one foot in Christianity....pretty hypocritical to me.
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Revelation 22:17)
Don't you think you're being a little too legalistic?
For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children. (Matthew 11:18-19)
And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: (Colossians 2:15-16)
guest
That's it? That's what "turns you off"? Not essential doctrinal error and practice? Not open sin and hypocracy? Not social doctrine? Not heresy? Just those who don't narrow a generic word meaning to exclude something?
I think your pain is driving you. And it's not anyone else's fault what happened with your husband; we are all individually accountable to God for ourselves.
Let me ask, do you exhibit any scholarship about the weightier matters of Scripture? Or have you studied primarily this particular area and neglected essential doctrines?
Abstinence is exemplified in the Nazarite Vow, and it included ALL fruit of the vine.
Not being legalistic at all. To obey the Word of God and to preach what is written therein is not called legalism... it's called obedience.
The Son of man came eating and drinking, Notice He did not say He was drinking alcohol? Yet, you, like the pharisees of times past, accuse Him of drinking alcohol. (oinopotes)
You are just as wrong as the Pharisees were.
Does Jesus like me?
I humbly submit it was both....
No.... I am frank and honest (a trait that gets me in trouble sometimes lol).... You are reactionary.... Which is a common symptom of being injured by those who take their liberty out of bounds.... I should know.... I've been there....
Honey when you can get past the hurt and pain (that BTW I can sympathize with) and have a simple honest discussion.... I would love to talk to you.... But I don't believe your hurt will let you see anything I would try to say to you.... Just remember this....
Jesus said it isn't what goes into your mouth that defiles you.... It is what comes out of it....
"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these things come from within and defile a man."
If someone chooses to take scripture out of context to justify drunkeness.... To justify what their heart already wants to do (get drunk).... That is a sin and it is what caused your pain.... Yet just on the other side of the same coin is the one who forced you to watch him drink himself to death....
But those who drink a glass of wine with dinner.... Not to get drunk but to enjoy the flavor of it along with their dinner.... They are not sinning.... Because their intent is not to get drunk.... It depends on what is in your heart as to whether or not that glass of wine is a sin....
And there is another thing.... Those who drink in front of one who was harmed by the evil of drunkeness are also sinning.... For that person was hurt.... And I would much rather abstain completely than enjoy my glass of wine if it causes hurt for someone else.... Or causes a recovering alcoholic to stumble....
In short.... I believe total abstinence is the best way to live ones life.... Because then I can't harm someone the way I was harmed.... Or cause a weaker brother (recovering alcoholic) to stumble....
But I do not believe a glass of wine with ones dinner is a sin.... Not in and of itself.... It is the intent of the one drinking it.... Kind of like it isn't the gun that kills someone but the person who pulled the trigger....
One last thing.... I didn't get an answer....
If Jesus was called a winebibber because He "came eating and drinking".... And wine in the bible is nothing more than grape juice....
Why was He ridiculed for drinking it?
Didn't the Pharisees drink it too?
My Church....
TO ALL MEN EVERYWHERE: Seek Justice.... Love Mercy.... Walk Humbly With Your God.... Let the watchers become warriors! Let the men of God arise!
TO ALL LADIES EVERYWHERE: There could never be a more beautiful you.... Defy the lies and disguises and hoops they make you jump through.... You were made to fill a purpose that only you could do....
My Facebook page....
Does Jesus like me?
I haven't spoken to you before now because you sir are rude and offensive.... Your rhetoric is filthy and your posts are full of self righteousness instead of genuine love....
I am speaking to you now to inform you that posting to me will be a complete and utter waste of keystrokes....
Just thought you would like to know.... You know.... So you don't waste them....
My Church....
TO ALL MEN EVERYWHERE: Seek Justice.... Love Mercy.... Walk Humbly With Your God.... Let the watchers become warriors! Let the men of God arise!
TO ALL LADIES EVERYWHERE: There could never be a more beautiful you.... Defy the lies and disguises and hoops they make you jump through.... You were made to fill a purpose that only you could do....
My Facebook page....
I find the rhetoric of the wine drinkers and the booze peddlers to be rude and offensive. Those who foolishly attempt to put alcohol into the hands of a sinless Savior are rude and offensive.
You ignore the truth all you wish, Ma'am. It is not hurting me for you to ignore truth.
Senior Member
Friendship with the world is enmity with God. (James 4:4) That's the state of worldly "professing" Christians....James says you are an enemy of God. Essential doctrinal error and practice would include obedience to God's word and not conforming to the world. God's word teaches total abstinence which worldly Christians advocate....that turns me off as well as the heretical teaching that Jesus made alcoholic wine and drank it, a lie which has deceived many and has probably sent many to a Christless eternity.
The only "pain" is the "pain" for those who are deceived. The only thing that "drives" me is the Truth. People who are deceived and are deceiving others are also accountable to God. Never blamed anyone else for my husband's choices...he made his own choices and will be held accountable for those choices. However other people influenced those choices...and those people will also be held accountable to God.I think your pain is driving you. And it's not anyone else's fault what happened with your husband; we are all individually accountable to God for ourselves.
Your self-righteousness is showing.Let me ask, do you exhibit any scholarship about the weightier matters of Scripture? Or have you studied primarily this particular area and neglected essential doctrines?
Since there are no more sin offerings and burnt offerings, there can be no more Nazarite vow, your point about abstinence is futile.Abstinence is exemplified in the Nazarite Vow, and it included ALL fruit of the vine.
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Revelation 22:17)
guest
...says the milk drinker.
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