Is Obedience Necessary For Salvation?

[andrew_no_one]

I agree with all of this, but is it our place to say that the person ThyWord mentioned was sinning willfully (i.e. making no effort to stop)? I would say only God knows that for certain.

I agree with you that none of use have the right to judge another. And I agree with everything else you say except for one point: It is my belief that all sin is willful. For example, if/when I sin, I have to make a choice to ignore the Holy Spirit and act on my own impulse or to obey the Lord God and starve whatever it is that would cause me to sin. I can not recall anything that I have ever done when I was not in total control of my actions (even that which was most horrible).

[Butch5]

Of course. I just wanted to point it out because it's what is in one's heart that counts.

The way you worded this concerns me. It seems like you're saying one must do works specifically to earn their salvation. It seems like you're saying that should be their motivation, to do works in order to earn and ensure their salvation. If so, I completely disagree.

Eric,

Did you read the part of my post that speaks of "Not of works" referring to the works of the Law. This is the context of "Not of works". One cannot earn salvation by works, it is not as though God said OK, if you do 2000 good deeds I will save you, however, one comes to Christ through faith, but once one is in Christ one must remain there. In order to remain there one must "Keep my commands" as Christ said. Doing good works apart from faith will not get one saved, however, faith without good works will not get one saved (provided one is able to do the works, i.e. the thief).

Christians are afraid of works because Luther and Calvin have so saturated Christianity with their teachings. There are people so afraid of works that they are afraid to believe in free will because they think if they made a choice they are doing some kind of work and therefore would lose their salvation. That is sad, Luther and Calvin have Christians so afraid of works and yet Jesus and the apostles clearly tell us if we don't do them we won't be saved. I mean if Jesus says it then that should end it, yet Christians still believe Luther and Calvin.

[John146]

I agree with you that none of use have the right to judge another. And I agree with everything else you say except for one point: It is my belief that all sin is willful. For example, if/when I sin, I have to make a choice to ignore the Holy Spirit and act on my own impulse or to obey the Lord God and starve whatever it is that would cause me to sin. I can not recall anything that I have ever done when I was not in total control of my actions (even that which was most horrible).

Do you believe that one must get to the point where they no longer sin at all in order to be saved then? What is your understanding of the following passage:

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Also, if all sin is willful sin then what do you make of Romans 7:14-25?

[Butch5]

I agree with you that none of use have the right to judge another. And I agree with everything else you say except for one point: It is my belief that all sin is willful. For example, if/when I sin, I have to make a choice to ignore the Holy Spirit and act on my own impulse or to obey the Lord God and starve whatever it is that would cause me to sin. I can not recall anything that I have ever done when I was not in total control of my actions (even that which was most horrible).

Well, all looking at pornography is willful.

[Butch5]

Do you believe that one must get to the point where they no longer sin at all in order to be saved then? What is your understanding of the following passage:

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Also, if all sin is willful sin then what do you make of Romans 7:14-25?

Eric, what does struggling with sin mean? If you know you have a propensity to do something and are tempted do you not have the power to resist? Scriptures says that God will not allow us to be tempted above what we can stand. I don't think the struggle is can I resist this? I think the struggle is am I going to obey or not?

[John146]

Eric,

Did you read the part of my post that speaks of "Not of works" referring to the works of the Law. This is the context of "Not of works".

Yes, I know that. I've made the same point myself many times and have pointed to Romans 3:26-4:5.

One cannot earn salvation by works, it is not as though God said OK, if you do 2000 good deeds I will save you, however, one comes to Christ through faith, but once one is in Christ one must remain there. In order to remain there one must "Keep my commands" as Christ said. Doing good works apart from faith will not get one saved, however, faith without good works will not get one saved (provided one is able to do the works, i.e. the thief).

Right. One becomes saved in the first place by confessing that Jesus is Lord (Rom 10:9-10) and if they really believe that then they will submit to Him and make an effort to obey Him.

Christians are afraid of works because Luther and Calvin have so saturated Christianity with their teachings. There are people so afraid of works that they are afraid to believe in free will because they think if they made a choice they are doing some kind of work and therefore would lose their salvation.

Right. I'm well aware of this.

That is sad, Luther and Calvin have Christians so afraid of works and yet Jesus and the apostles clearly tell us if we don't do them we won't be saved. I mean if Jesus says it then that should end it, yet Christians still believe Luther and Calvin.

Not me.

[notuptome]

Absolutely incorrect my friend, see my post above.

Grace is the ONLY thing necessary for salvation.

Salvation is in Gods hands and not mans hands.

If you understand it it's because you got it.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[John146]

Eric, what does struggling with sin mean?

Read Romans 7:14-25. It means that someone doesn't want to sin and wants to do what's right, but they are struggling with the flesh.

If you know you have a propensity to do something and are tempted do you not have the power to resist?

Sure, but there's also the potential for getting tripped up and letting the flesh get the best of you even though that's not what you want to happen. Surely, you understand that we still have to contend with the flesh even after we become saved? It takes effort to walk in the Spirit so that we don't fulfill the lusts of the flesh, does it not?

Scriptures says that God will not allow us to be tempted above what we can stand. I don't think the struggle is can I resist this? I think the struggle is am I going to obey or not?

I agree. The point is that it's a struggle. Someone can want to do what is right but still struggle to actually do it because we still have to contend with the flesh.

[andrew_no_one]

Do you believe that one must get to the point where they no longer sin at all in order to be saved then? What is your understanding of the following passage:

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Also, if all sin is willful sin then what do you make of Romans 7:14-25?

The only time we will ever be without sin is when our Lord will finally make us complete. Jesus died for us before we loved Him and it is by grace that we are saved. Romans 7:14-25 illustrates the struggle within us against sin and the power of Jesus Christ living in us who has saved us when we were not able to save ourselves.

Ephesians 5:3-7
3But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7Therefore do not be partners with them.

For you and I, and all other Christians, salvation is no longer the goal. We have that. However we must seek to glorify God in all that we do. If we are doing what is described above in Ephesians, we are exhibiting an unsaved condition and therefore not saved. The name of Jesus is not a magic spell that all we have to do is season our conversation with it to get into Heaven. We must follow Jesus and do what He has told us to do.

Matthew 7:18-24
18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

[petepet]

Absolutely incorrect my friend, see my post above.

Lol nothing that you cited disagrees with what I said. It is you who are incorrect, if we are to speak like that to each other. I suggest that you read it again more carefully without jumping to conclusions.

Of course salvation RESULTS in obedience, and if it does not then it is not salvation, but obedience is the result, not a part of the salvation. It is the consequence of salvation. For the salvation is GOD'S work. All the quotations you cited are describing the RESULT of salvation in an individual.

But salvation itself is freely given, without works of obedience, because it is the work of God given in response to true faith (Romans 3.24-25; Ephesians 2.8-9).. Apart from response and 'working it out' we have no part to play in our salvation. It is God Who does it, and our obedience is a consequence of it, not a condition of it.

[petepet]

Guys, this salvation is not of works idea is out of context. Please note Paul was speaking of the Law in Ephesians 2 and Romans 4. He was "NOT" speaking of obedience to Christ. There is a multitude of passages that speak of the necessity of obedience. Why do Christians take one or two statements from Paul and try to negate Jesus' ministry?


John 5:27-29 ( KJV )
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Matthew 7:21 ( KJV )
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


Matthew 25:31-46 ( KJV )
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


John 15:1-8 ( KJV )
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.


Mark 9:43-48 ( KJV )
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


Hebrews 5:8-9 ( KJV )
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Romans 2:5-10 ( KJV )
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Revelation 20:11-15 ( KJV )
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The Scriptures are clear guys, even Paul says doing good works is seeking eternal life. Jesus' words are quite clear and I think he had a better understanding of salvation than all of the apostles.

Christians need to stop listening to Martin Luther and John Calvin and this idea that works are some kind of plague. They are necessary Jesus makes that clear, as does Paul, John, James, and Peter. Luther and Calvin took Paul's statements in Ephesians and Romans completely out of context and created a "FALSE" doctrine based on them.

Please show me one verse above which says that obedience is a condition of our salvation. You cannot because that is not what Jesus Christ was saying. What He is saying is that they are a consequence of salvation. Jesus Himself clearly taught that those who are 'saved' are so because God has chosen them to be saved. No one comes to Jesus unless the Father draws them.

The trouble is that many use the word 'salvation' loosely. They think of it as an 'it'. But salvation is the WORK OF GOD by which He takes a man, declares him righteous through the righteousness of Christ, and commences in him a transforming work which will finally result in him being presented perfect before Him. The only part we play in this work of salvation is to respond to it i.e. faith. And this work of God is wholly a free gift without a need for works of any kind (Romans 3.24-25; Ephesians 2.8-9). God does not choose us because somehow we are better than others. He chooses us by grace.

Of course as He does His saving work within us we begin to walk in obedience. Indeed if we did not it would man that God was failing in His saving work. But that obedience is not a condition of His saving work but a result of it.

Entering Heaven is not salvation. That too is a consequence of salvation. And the man who is truly being saved by God will both become obedient and will enter Heaven (or more correctly the new heaven and the new earth).

Both John Calvin and Martin Luther were clear on this, as they followed the teaching of Jesus and Paul. As John Calvin put it, 'we are saved by faith alone, but the faith which saves is not alone'.

Of course works are necessary. They are commanded. Even works of the law. But they cannot in any way contribute towards our salvation. They are a result of it.

Of course if you think of salvation as simply meaning going to Heaven then it is true that we will not enter heaven if we have not been responsive to Christ. But that is NOT what salvation means. Salvation is a work of God by which He brings us to Himself and makes us into what He wants us to be.

[petepet]

God looks at the heart. If the man was genuinely sorry for his sin of looking at pornography and wanted to stop then God would know that. We all struggle with sin, don't we? If we were denied inheritance of the kingdom of God because of struggling with sin then none of us would inherit the kingdom of God. God knows those who are purposely and willfully refusing to repent and those who are repentant but still are struggling with sin. If that person willfully kept himself in bondage to pornography then that's another story. That's not something that God would find to be acceptable at all.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

We all struggle and fight with sin, and we all at times fail. We are all selfish by nature. Our sin might not be pornography, it might be pride, or vanity, or arrogance, or lack of true consideration for others, or a hundred other sins. What we can say is that if someone continues in a known sin and is not struggling against it, then it is a sign that God is not at work within him. But if he is struggling against it, but constantly failing, it merely demonstrates that like us all he is an habitual sinner. And all of us are habitual sinners, for none of us live up to the standard of the glory of God (Romans 3.23).

We should beware of citing Hebrews 10.26 in this context. That was pointing out to Jewish Christians who were thinking of turning back to Judaism that the old system of sacrifices was no longer available. It had been effective before Christ came but now it was no longer effective. It is not denying that a man who has wilfully sinned can find cleansing in the blood of Christ. Indeed we know that he can (1 John 1.7).

[Butch5]

Grace is the ONLY thing necessary for salvation.

Salvation is in Gods hands and not mans hands.

If you understand it it's because you got it.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Have you taken Jesus' words out of your Bible then?

[Butch5]

Read Romans 7:14-25. It means that someone doesn't want to sin and wants to do what's right, but they are struggling with the flesh.

I believe in that passage Paul is speaking of himself before he became a Christian, he says,

Romans 7:24-25 ( KJV )
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Sure, but there's also the potential for getting tripped up and letting the flesh get the best of you even though that's not what you want to happen. Surely, you understand that we still have to contend with the flesh even after we become saved? It takes effort to walk in the Spirit so that we don't fulfill the lusts of the flesh, does it not?

Yes, there is the potential to get tripped up, I agree. However, not ever gaining victory over a sin through ones lifetime? That seems to me more that getting tripped up.

I agree. The point is that it's a struggle. Someone can want to do what is right but still struggle to actually do it because we still have to contend with the flesh.

The struggle is to obey, we can choose not to do the sin, the question is will we.

[kay-gee]

Eric,

Did you read the part of my post that speaks of "Not of works" referring to the works of the Law. This is the context of "Not of works". One cannot earn salvation by works, it is not as though God said OK, if you do 2000 good deeds I will save you, however, one comes to Christ through faith, but once one is in Christ one must remain there. In order to remain there one must "Keep my commands" as Christ said. Doing good works apart from faith will not get one saved, however, faith without good works will not get one saved (provided one is able to do the works, i.e. the thief).

Christians are afraid of works because Luther and Calvin have so saturated Christianity with their teachings. There are people so afraid of works that they are afraid to believe in free will because they think if they made a choice they are doing some kind of work and therefore would lose their salvation. That is sad, Luther and Calvin have Christians so afraid of works and yet Jesus and the apostles clearly tell us if we don't do them we won't be saved. I mean if Jesus says it then that should end it, yet Christians still believe Luther and Calvin.

Absolutely amazing post Butch5. You shed some light for me on this topic. I can understand now how these "grace only" folks have fallen into this error. It would be intersting to trace their denominational affiliations and see if they stop at Luther and Calvin. IMO, these two in their zeal to overturn a "Works" driven religious system, completely threw the baby out with the bath water. Everyting comes down to obedience. Salvation is by OBEYING the Gospel (Romans 6:17) (2Thess 1:8) Sprinkled with His blood comes by OBEYING Jesus Christ (1Peter 1:2, 1:22) Continued OBEDIENCE is the mark of the true disciple (John 8:31) These are a fraction of the NT verses that teach obedience.
To my thinking, those that try to nullify the teaching of these clear concise verse with Eph. 2:8 are people that have stopped studying the Bible and are just trying to coast through on denominational dogma.

all the best...