God is not all Love, but is Hate as well. God does both good and evil. It is the natural order of things, even if you are an atheist/deist you can see this in the nature around you. God provides food and water to all living things in an equal and just manner; yet it is never a good thing in the eyes of a rabbit being the dinner of a fox. The rain which waters the earth and brings life to the planet, also causes havoc, death and many other sorrows. All things are from God, both the good and the bad, and this is evident in the nature which He created.
Yaaqov ben YisraelSee the thread: http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...all-of-MankindHello Yaaqov ben Yisrael,
The Christian God is described as a God of love (1st John 4:8), and "God is light, and and in Him is no darkness at all" (1st John 1:5). Yaaqov ben Yisrael, you are entitled to your own definition of god, but the god you describe is not the same God as revealed through the bible.
God created the heavens and the earth and everything in them, including Adam. Of these He said it was good. Of Eve, He said it was very good.
Despite what we moderns look back and call their "free will," in that A & E were able to choose for themselves if they would disobey God, as a practical matter, it sure seems like their "Fall" was inevitable.
Either God wanted them to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and His command was reverse psychology, or being created "good" and "very good" wasn't quite good enough. If God didn't intend for A & E to disobey Him and eat, He would have had to be disappointed in Himself: The new prototype wasn't working quite as "good" as He thought.
But it makes no sense to say God did not intend the "Fall of Mankind".
A. He foreknew it would happen, and for that reason from the foundation of the earth He had plans in action to remedy the situation.
Thus declares the LORD who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him,
And, “ YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
“ The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come."
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
1 Corinthians 2:6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; 7 but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; 9 but just as it is written,
“ Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard,
And which have not entered the heart of man,
All that God has prepared for those who love Him.”
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
B. In His omniscience and goodness, there is no other explanation. God was not surprised when Satan fell, and He was not surprised when mankind fell. There was great purpose behind these things. ... And what purpose is that?
C. God was seeking to create a very unique thing: A people for His own possession, eager to do good, having attained to the fullness of the stature of Christ, producing abundant fruit, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty times what God has invested in them, with their love abounding still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, such that they approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ, having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God. Titus 2; Ephesians 4; Matthew 13; Romans 2:7-10; 1 Corinthinans 10:31; colossians 3:17, 23; Philippians 1.
You don't just form the creature and breath the breath of life into him. Rather, it takes time. It is a process. And it requires bringing a person to choose it for themselves. Otherwise, it is not real. Otherwise, it is not love.
D. On the other hand, what purpose could God have had to create mankind as defectively incomplete as A & E? Why in heaven or on the world would God want mankind to stay as naive, useless, and unproductive for His kingdom as they were when created. Though they were created in His image, A & E were a far cry from Jesus Christ, who was created as an exact representation of His being.
E. And that is the trajectory we all have been set upon. We are being made into the image of Christ, but we are commanded to "put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to the its lusts." Romans 13.
Just think what might have happened if A & E had been given that command, a far more complicated thing. Would they still have fallen?
Of course. They had no perspective. They had never sinned, nor known the difference between good and evil. Eating of the Tree was that very thing: Making provision for the Flesh.
F. And then one might wonder: Why did A & E not choose to eat of the Tree of Life?
Again, with no experience, they had no idea what its comparative benefits would be. They could not choose it in an informed manner, just as they could not choose to obey God about the other tree in an informed manner. Satan got them thinking about making provision for the flesh, and their reasoning demonstrates their limited perspective: Good for food and to make oneself wise. Sure, why not.
God tossed them out of the Garden after they fell, in order to make sure they would not eat of the Tree of Life:
22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
Let me ask this. Did Jesus know the difference between good and evil?
14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. 15 He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good.16 For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken.
If the goal was to make a person like Jesus Christ out of Adam, who may have been incomplete upon creation, but was good anyway, why not have him eat of both trees, adding the knowledge of Good and Evil to living forever? After all, Jesus lives forever, and He had knowledge of good and evil.
The answer has to be that it takes more than knowledge of good and evil and eternal life in order to be like Jesus, who God predestined us to become like. God was trying to add something more to us through this process of the giving of the command and "The Fall", the giving of the Promise and the Law, and the fall into idolatry, and the giving of the Spirit of the Law and the New Covenant through Christ. What did these, and the many steps inbetween them, build into the cultural consciousness and unconsciousness of the Jews? And what did it make possible to be grafted into that growing tree through the Gentiles? In the end, what will it be that grafts so many more Jews back into that tree? That they cease their unbelief. Romans 11.
But just like obedience and love itself, belief is a conclusion leading to action, based on a choice.
G. The Lord is perfectly good, and He made A & E incomplete on purpose, that they would Fall, that at least some of mankind might be broken sufficiently that the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory in Christ, could Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish them. 1 Peter 5:10.
So, may it be that He will grant each of us, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in our hearts through faith; and that we, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that we may be filled up to all the fullness of God. To Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen. Ephesians3:16-21.
We are called not just to overcome the Fallen Adam, but the innocent Adam as well. For we are predestined to become the New (Kainos)Anthropos, the final (Eschatos) Adam, from glory to glory. Ephesians 4:24; 2 Corinthians 3:18.
In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose (Boule) who works all things after the counsel (Boule)of His will (Thelema), 12 to the end that we who ... hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:10-12.
What say you?
Hi, my old (relatively) friend, Keck.
I am sorry I gave you the impression I was suggesting God oughta be blamed for orchestrating the Fall. But to the contrary, my point is that A & E did act out of free will, but God knew they would fall before He created them. Indeed, He wanted them to Fall. That was His plan from before the foundaton of the World.
He didn't have to allow the tempter into the Garden.
He could have counselled A & E with knowledge to prepare them to deal with the tempter.
He did not need to put the Tree of the K of G & E in the Garden.
He did not have to give the command to not eat of it. Paul expresses this principle regarding the impact of God commanding anything of us:
In other words, commands of any kind entice the flesh. Though A & E were not born with the sin nature, their ordinary human desires were turned against the command of God through enticement. (incidentally, this is precisely the kind of temptation Jesus underwent, who was tempted in every way we are. Heb 4:15; 2:18). The result was that A & E set their minds on what their flesh desired rather than what God commanded. Paul expresses this principle as well:
Surely, God knew all of this sort of thing.
Yet, He orchestrated this scenario:
1. Innocent in the Garden
2. Two Trees
3. The Command
4. The tempter
5. Little to no advice on dealing with the tempter or the desires of their flesh
6. He planned the solution before He created A & E
7. The solution is integral to making mankind find a desire to choose God, choose good, choose love of the truth, and choose to love God more than their life in this world.
8. The history of God's dealings with mankind demonstrates God's goal is to create a people for His own possession, eager to do good -- yes, out of their own free will.
9. For that matter, what's up with making it so one sin corrupts the entire race of humans with the sin nature. God did not have to make it that way. But He had a reason for doing so.
There is no blame toward God. Nor is it evil of God to have orchestrated the Fall of mankind. To us, all is a gift. Not even innocent A & E had reason to complain that God created them or set them up to fall.
I appreciate your comments, and i am interested in what you think about these things. It's okay if we disagree. I am really just trying to open up some discussion on the teleology demonstrated by the entire counsel of God. In my view, most of our narratives of what's going on are piecemeal, vague, contradictory, and, really, often rather implausible.
Does God hide it all from us? No. He's revealed far more than we have already received in our fellowship with His Word and the Spirit.