Lust and fornication outside of marriage

[Max Power]

I’ve been doing a lot of thinking recently about lust. Until I did some research I wasn’t that sure about what the Bible had to say about it other than the fact that it’s adulterous to look at a woman lustfully if she’s not your wife. I still have some questions though.

Am I right in saying that it’s wrong to look at my girlfriend lustfully? We’ve been together for eight years and love each other very much. We’ve never slept together, but have been lustful towards each other. Recently I’ve been trying to not look at her lustfully. Am I right to continue with this? I’ve already have a large debate in here about us not being married yet, so please don’t send this thread down that path. That isn’t what I’m asking about.

My next question regarding this is: what is the difference between being lustful towards someone and being attracted to them? Is there a difference at all?

I was also doing a bit of research the other day to do with what the Bible says about sex before marriage. I know that it says fornication is a sin. When researching the definition of fornication though I found that it only refers to sexual intercourse outside of marriage. I was under the impression that any sort of sexual activity outside of marriage was a sin. What does the Bible say about sexual activity outside of marriage excluding sexual intercourse? Would a couple who abstained from sexual intercourse but did partake in other sexual activity be sinful?

Thanks everyone.

[saved11]

Until I did some research I wasn’t that sure about what the Bible had to say about it other than the fact that it’s adulterous to look at a woman lustfully if she’s not your wife.

Would a couple who abstained from sexual intercourse but did partake in other sexual activity be sinful?

Max Power,
Others will chime in. But I just want to highlight something quickly. If looking at a woman is lustful, what more of any other sexual activity (ie other than sexual intercouse).

You can see this sort of analogy anywhere. A person that steals $5 will not be punished the same as the person that steals millions. Same goes in the Old Testament, more severe punishment are meted out for worse crimes. Also, one would discipline a child differently for different crimes. A child disobeying you by eating a cookie before dinner even though he is told he can't do it then will have different discipline as a child who stole $100 from his mother's purse.

Not everything has to be spelt out word for word. The understanding is there. Even a child in the above eg knows that the 'crime' of eating a cookie will anger his parents less than stealing $100. And I doubt any parent will be amused or really believed that the child is honest on hearing a 10 or 12 year old child give the excuse saying that well, you never said that stealing $100 is wrong or a more disobedient act. You just said stealing $10 or eating a cookie is wrong.


What we think/what's in our heart is very important. That's why we are called to guard our hearts. I'm going to copy a post from elsewhere.

[That's why Philippians 4:8 says: “Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.” Paul here gives a command to think on (keep your thoughts on) pure and praiseworthy things, not lustful things. “But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.” (James 1:14-15) Our lusts (excessive desires) lead us to sin. ]

Before one look at a person lustfully, before one commit any sexual activities be it sexual intercourse or others, one would have already thought about it. One then acts on the thought by the action of the lustful look or the sexual activites.

[Max Power]

I see. So you're saying that while the sexual act (something other than sexual intercourse) may not sinful, it does cause lust, or is created out of lust, and it's that lust which is sinful. That's pretty much along the lines of which I was thinking.

Or are you saying that the Bible implies that all sexual activity is sinful even though it doesn't specifically say it? If that's what was implied, why does it not just say it? If a child steals $10 wouldn't it be better to tell them that all stealing is bad? I'm not too keen on following this kind of assumption.

[Athanasius]

I’ve been doing a lot of thinking recently about lust. Until I did some research I wasn’t that sure about what the Bible had to say about it other than the fact that it’s adulterous to look at a woman lustfully if she’s not your wife. I still have some questions though.

Am I right in saying that it’s wrong to look at my girlfriend lustfully? We’ve been together for eight years and love each other very much. We’ve never slept together, but have been lustful towards each other. Recently I’ve been trying to not look at her lustfully. Am I right to continue with this? I’ve already have a large debate in here about us not being married yet, so please don’t send this thread down that path. That isn’t what I’m asking about.

She's not your wife, it's sin to lust after her. You would be correct to try not to.

My next question regarding this is: what is the difference between being lustful towards someone and being attracted to them? Is there a difference at all?

Attraction is an appreciation of who a person is and a desire to be with them; lust is moving from appreciation and desire (or building on desire) to thoughts along the line of, "I wonder what 'X' would be like with this person?" and then entertaining 'X' in the imagination (In this case solely sexual thoughts).

I was also doing a bit of research the other day to do with what the Bible says about sex before marriage. I know that it says fornication is a sin. When researching the definition of fornication though I found that it only refers to sexual intercourse outside of marriage. I was under the impression that any sort of sexual activity outside of marriage was a sin. What does the Bible say about sexual activity outside of marriage excluding sexual intercourse? Would a couple who abstained from sexual intercourse but did partake in other sexual activity be sinful?

Thanks everyone.

What activity after you referring to?

[ClayInHisHands]

Is there anything in the Word that says it is a sin to lustfully look my wife. We just had our fourth child and it's been a month and a half since. Does the Word insinuate in anyway that I'm wrong for lusting and yearning to be with her. I've thought to myself, "you've got to have self-control and that it would make it wrong to gratify self even if I am fantasizing about my wife." Thoughts??

[Athanasius]

Is there anything in the Word that says it is a sin to lustfully look my wife. We just had our fourth child and it's been a month and a half since. Does the Word insinuate in anyway that I'm wrong for lusting and yearning to be with her. I've thought to myself, "you've got to have self-control and that it would make it wrong to gratify self even if I am fantasizing about my wife." Thoughts??

Well, we're talking about women (or men) who aren't one's spouse... So I don't think many would agree (I wouldn't) that it's wrong to 'lust' after one's wife, or husband.

[ClayInHisHands]

So I don't think many would agree (I wouldn't) that it's wrong to 'lust' after one's wife, or husband.

But what about gratifying yourself while fantasizng about your wife? My wife has told me she has no problem with me doing this if we can't be together for extended amounts of time. What if you 'really' are fanatsizing and recalling intimate moments you had in the past and so forth?

[JohnDB]

Of course you are going to lust after your Girl Friend....she is your girl friend after all...you obviously are attracted to her otherwise she wouldn't be your girl friend.

but you also know her as a person. Which is very outside of what the Bible is referring to when mentioning lust.

Don't fornicate but....marry her instead and you can have her in a physically intimate manner completely guilt free.

[Athanasius]

But what about gratifying yourself while fantasizng about your wife? My wife has told me she has no problem with me doing this if we can't be together for extended amounts of time. What if you 'really' are fanatsizing and recalling intimate moments you had in the past and so forth?

If she's your wife, I don't see a problem with it. I've never really thought about it though.

[saved11]

Latest edit: I'm sorry. I just had to delete my post. Trying to explain while having a splitting headache results in a very bad post and one that will not be in alignment with God's wish. So for whoever who have read it pls ignore it as I think I may not have made much sense.

If its God's will I will type a response although from my experience if I'm having real trouble typing it, this is not for me to reply.

So Max Power, I will pray for someone to be able to reply to you (whether its me or someone else). May not necessarily be to the 2 specific questions that you address me though.

[saved11]

I see. So you're saying that while the sexual act (something other than sexual intercourse) may not sinful, it does cause lust, or is created out of lust, and it's that lust which is sinful. That's pretty much along the lines of which I was thinking.

No, that's not exactly what I meant. While its true that sexual acts due to lust is sinful, even if the sexual act between unmarried couples is not due to (lust be it partially, or will ultimately cause lust or due to anger/revenge/wanting to hurt etc), it will still be sinful. Sexual acts are meant only when a couple is married. Pls read the below article. It will help at least partially I hope to answer your 2 questions.

http://www.gotquestions.org/know-sin.html

Or are you saying that the Bible implies that all sexual activity is sinful even though it doesn't specifically say it? If that's what was implied, why does it not just say it? If a child steals $10 wouldn't it be better to tell them that all stealing is bad? I'm not too keen on following this kind of assumption.

Its not always possible to write every sin [(be it specific/specific situation eg: do not steal $10 or do not steal from your sister) or (general eg: do not steal)]. But we will tend to know whether its a sin or not and whether it is a more serious sin. That was what I was trying to get at, with my children/stealing examples. Pls read above article attached.

Lastly, I realize that you do think more deeply than I do on this matter. For me, whether it be wrong thoughts (eg: thoughts of lusts) or wrongful acts (eg: sexual acts for unmarried couples)--they are all sins. That's why I guess I was rather surprised by your questions and maybe a person that thinks as deeply as you do will be better able to help you than me.

While wrong thoughts may lead to wrong acts, I'm not exactly sure whether sexual acts between unmarried couples can occur without the presence of wrong thoughts. However, I do know that our body is the temple of God, thus even if there's a possibility (which I really wonder) that no wrong thoughts exist, the sexual act between unmarried couples itself would have caused us to sin in our body. See 1 Corinthians 6:18-20
Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

[Radagast]

I’ve been doing a lot of thinking recently about lust. Until I did some research I wasn’t that sure about what the Bible had to say about it other than the fact that it’s adulterous to look at a woman lustfully if she’s not your wife. I still have some questions though.

Am I right in saying that it’s wrong to look at my girlfriend lustfully? We’ve been together for eight years and love each other very much. We’ve never slept together, but have been lustful towards each other. Recently I’ve been trying to not look at her lustfully. Am I right to continue with this? I’ve already have a large debate in here about us not being married yet, so please don’t send this thread down that path. That isn’t what I’m asking about.

Except that it's natural to feel an attraction to someone of the opposite sex (which includes a sexual attraction) and then marry that person. What you call "looking lustfully" at your girlfriend would be quite all right (would in fact be a good thing) if you were getting married tomorrow.

I was also doing a bit of research the other day to do with what the Bible says about sex before marriage. I know that it says fornication is a sin. When researching the definition of fornication though I found that it only refers to sexual intercourse outside of marriage. I was under the impression that any sort of sexual activity outside of marriage was a sin.

Indeed. Fornication includes all kinds of sexual activity outside of marriage.

[Max Power]

Attraction is an appreciation of who a person is and a desire to be with them; lust is moving from appreciation and desire (or building on desire) to thoughts along the line of, "I wonder what 'X' would be like with this person?" and then entertaining 'X' in the imagination (In this case solely sexual thoughts).

That is true. That makes sense. What’s the difference between physical attraction and lust though? When I look at my girlfriend I find her incredibly beautiful, and can feel attracted to her without thinking about performing physical acts with her. Is simply finding her beautiful lustful?

What activity after you referring to?

Touching each other sexually over clothes. Am I right in saying that the Bible doesn’t describe this sort of physical act as sinful?

Of course you are going to lust after your Girl Friend....she is your girl friend after all...you obviously are attracted to her otherwise she wouldn't be your girl friend.

but you also know her as a person. Which is very outside of what the Bible is referring to when mentioning lust.

Don't fornicate but....marry her instead and you can have her in a physically intimate manner completely guilt free.

But lust is simply self gratification without consideration of consequences right? So even though I know my girlfriend very well as a person, looking at her lustfully is pleasing to my mind, without consideration of how she may feel about it, or how God feels about it. Surely lust is wrong no matter how well you know someone you’re not married to?

Fornication is simply sexual intercourse outside of marriage. What about other sexual activity? Is that okay? I always thought the Bible said it was sinful, but I can’t actually find anywhere where it says it is.

We’ll get married one day, just not right now. Let’s not get into that though! I’ve already had a whole thread of people pressuring me to hurry up and marry her, lol.

No, that's not exactly what I meant. While its true that sexual acts due to lust is sinful, even if the sexual act between unmarried couples is not due to (lust be it partially, or will ultimately cause lust or due to anger/revenge/wanting to hurt etc), it will still be sinful. Sexual acts are meant only when a couple is married. Pls read the below article. It will help at least partially I hope to answer your 2 questions.

http://www.gotquestions.org/know-sin.html

I sort of get what that article is saying. It creates a very large shade of gray though. It could be used to question pretty much every single aspect of our lives. There’s still nothing that specifically says that sexual acts (excluding intercourse) outside of marriage is sinful, even though that does ignore everything said in that article.

Its not always possible to write every sin [(be it specific/specific situation eg: do not steal $10 or do not steal from your sister) or (general eg: do not steal)]. But we will tend to know whether its a sin or not and whether it is a more serious sin. That was what I was trying to get at, with my children/stealing examples. Pls read above article attached.

I just don’t understand why it doesn’t say that any sexual activity outside of marriage is sinful. That sort of statement covers a multitude of acts without having to list every single one. Just like telling a child that all stealing is wrong covers all your bases.

There aren’t sins that are more serious than others. Before God all sins are equal. A liar is just as much a sinner as a serial killer. Lust is just as sinful as sex outside of marriage. In God’s eyes they’re the same.

While wrong thoughts may lead to wrong acts, I'm not exactly sure whether sexual acts between unmarried couples can occur without the presence of wrong thoughts.

I agree. I’m not sure if it’s possible either.

However, I do know that our body is the temple of God, thus even if there's a possibility (which I really wonder) that no wrong thoughts exist, the sexual act between unmarried couples itself would have caused us to sin in our body. See 1 Corinthians 6:18-20
Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

Where in the Bible does it say that sexual acts (except for intercourse) outside of marriage are sexually immoral though? It lists homosexuality, bestiality etc, but I can’t find any reference to other sexual acts outside of marriage.

Except that it's natural to feel an attraction to someone of the opposite sex (which includes a sexual attraction) and then marry that person. What you call "looking lustfully" at your girlfriend would be quite all right (would in fact be a good thing) if you were getting married tomorrow.

I completely understand that it’s normal to be attracted to someone of the opposite sex. It’s just wrong to look at them lustfully unless married.

Yes, absolutely; it’s fine to look at someone lustfully if you’re married to them. Most people look at each other lustfully (or at least have an urge to) right from the beginning of a relationship, but no one’s going to get married after just one date. No, we must resist our lustful temptations as our relationships and love grows, until we’re at a stage where we’re ready to get married.

Rushing into marriage to avoid lustful temptations is foolish. While it is better to marry than be sinful through lust, it is even better to resist that temptation and allow the relationship and love to grow first.

Indeed. Fornication includes all kinds of sexual activity outside of marriage.

If that was true I would have no problem what so ever. This is where my question comes from though because everything I’ve read states that fornication simply refers to sexual intercourse outside of marriage, not any other sexual activity. So while the Bible says that sexual intercourse outside of marriage (fornication) is wrong, it says nothing about other sexual activity outside of marriage (for example: sexual touching over clothes).





I do agree that sexual acts outside of marriage are sinful. All I’m doing here though is questioning my own beliefs in order to strengthen them. I want to understand how the Bible states it as sinful. I know it’s sinful, but where does the Bible say so? So while I may be questioning the arguments of all of you, I do agree with you.

[notuptome]

There is a difference between lust and love. One is pure and the other is of the flesh. A marriage built on lust will fail.

I suspect this question is not asked to seek truth but to rationalize a way around the call to abstain from all sexual contact outside of marriage.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[saved11]

Max Power, I will pull out of the discussion here and let others more knowledgeable than me to help you. I really do not know how to convince you at this stage as you continue to be stumped with regards to whatever discussion or scripture I have provided you. I hope others can help you though and I pray that God will open your eyes to see the truth and that you will be able to understand it with your head and heart.