Rev.12..Does the woman flee twice?

[seeker_truth]

Rev.12..Does the woman flee twice, during two separate events?

[DurbanDude]

Rev.12..Does the woman flee twice, during two separate events?

The woman flees once. The woman represents Israel, fleeing during the dispersion that occurred 40 years after the crucifixion.

This chapter is better understood when regarding Satan as being cast down twice, once before the child comes. In ancient times Satan is cast to earthly regions commonly known as the "heavenlies", where Satan resides at the moment. He was cast out of heaven into this spiritual region surrounding earth. Thus our fight is not against flesh and blood, but against spiritual powers in the "sky" or "heavens" of our earthly region.
Secondly , Satan loses a war in heaven, and gets cast out onto earth itself for a short period of wrath. This is during the church age, when Rev 12 is clear that it is the church that causes this casting down through our testimony.

It is only with this background that we can clearly understand the two casting down of Satan, one that clearly occurs before the child Jesus, and the other that clearly occurs after the child is snatched away, during the church age when saints have a testimony and overcome through our testimony.

[Beckrl]

The woman flees once. The woman represents Israel, fleeing during the dispersion that occurred 40 years after the crucifixion.

This chapter is better understood when regarding Satan as being cast down twice, once before the child comes. In ancient times Satan is cast to earthly regions commonly known as the "heavenlies", where Satan resides at the moment. He was cast out of heaven into this spiritual region surrounding earth. Thus our fight is not against flesh and blood, but against spiritual powers in the "sky" or "heavens" of our earthly region.
Secondly , Satan loses a war in heaven, and gets cast out onto earth itself for a short period of wrath. This is during the church age, when Rev 12 is clear that it is the church that causes this casting down through our testimony.

It is only with this background that we can clearly understand the two casting down of Satan, one that clearly occurs before the child Jesus, and the other that clearly occurs after the child is snatched away, during the church age when saints have a testimony and overcome through our testimony.

Can you provide scriptural evidence that Satan the old serpent was cast down twice.

[seeker_truth]

The woman flees once. The woman represents Israel, fleeing during the dispersion that occurred 40 years after the crucifixion.

This chapter is better understood when regarding Satan as being cast down twice, once before the child comes. In ancient times Satan is cast to earthly regions commonly known as the "heavenlies", where Satan resides at the moment. He was cast out of heaven into this spiritual region surrounding earth. Thus our fight is not against flesh and blood, but against spiritual powers in the "sky" or "heavens" of our earthly region.
Secondly , Satan loses a war in heaven, and gets cast out onto earth itself for a short period of wrath. This is during the church age, when Rev 12 is clear that it is the church that causes this casting down through our testimony.

It is only with this background that we can clearly understand the two casting down of Satan, one that clearly occurs before the child Jesus, and the other that clearly occurs after the child is snatched away, during the church age when saints have a testimony and overcome through our testimony.

First: Do you know of any reason for the differences between the following two verses..
Rev.12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Rev.12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

[divaD]

First: Do you know of any reason for the differences between the following two verses..
Rev.12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Rev.12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.[/FONT]

Differences? I'm not following you? Wouldn't the obvious conclusion be that a thousand two hundred and threescore days is the same as, a time, and times, and half a time?

[Beckrl]

First: Do you know of any reason for the differences between the following two verses..
Rev.12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Rev.12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.[/FONT]

What John has described is what shall happen after the woman have delivered the child, that Satan would come after the child but then the child was caught up unto God, Satan then turns after the woman. Verse 13. "And when the dragon saw that he was casted unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child." She then flees into the wilderness into her place.

In verses 7-17 John elaborates and given more details. As for the days 1260 and time (360)+times (720)+half(180)=1260

[seeker_truth]

Differences? I'm not following you? Wouldn't the obvious conclusion be that a thousand two hundred and threescore days is the same as, a time, and times, and half a time?

IMO, two different phrases were used to describe 3.5 years, for the purpose of defining two separate events.

The woman flees in the 1st century, a thousand two hundred and threescore days, and again in the 21st century, a time, and times, and half a time. A very logical way of making a distinction.

The expression, a time, and times, and a half, is used in Dan.12:7:
And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

We learn in Dan.12 of a time of trouble that is unlike any other for the nation of Israel, and an undetermined day and hour of the resurrection and translation that occurs within a time, times, and an half.

Dan.12:1-3 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

It does seem to give a bit of validity to MHO.

[DurbanDude]

Can you provide scriptural evidence that Satan the old serpent was cast down twice.

I believe he was cast down once, but the second time is still a future event, that precedes the tribulation. Rev 12 itself is sufficient scriptural evidence. This verse is before Jesus is born:
and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

And yet this verse is during the church age when saints are giving their testimony (has to be after Jesus was born, because these are saints with a testimony):
12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

The accuser of the saints (church age satan) is cast down.

Rev 12 proves that Satan is cast down twice. Rev 12 indicates that even though he was cast to earth before the child is born, he is still in heavenly regions accusing the saints after the child is born, and needs to be cast down further, which is achieved through the testimony of the saints..

[John146]

Rev.12..Does the woman flee twice, during two separate events?

No. Recapitulation (the same events shown from different angles or giving a summary or added details to something mentioned earlier) is common in the book of Revelation. In Rev 12:6 we learn that the woman flees into the wilderness after the ascension of the man child to heaven, which is referring to Christ's ascension to the right hand of the Father in heaven. Then Rev 12:14 gives more details and we learn that the woman flees into the wilderness after Satan has been cast down from heaven and persecutes her. After Christ's ascension there was great persecution against the church (led by Saul) and we can read about that in Acts 7-8. That's what I believe Rev 12 is referring to when it speaks of Satan persecuting the woman. But Satan was not allowed to destroy the church.

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. 2And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him. 3As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison. 4Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.

The way that the church was kept safe in the wilderness was by being "scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria". So, the wilderness represents places outside of Jerusalem. So, even if Saul had managed to have every Christian in Jerusalem either killed or put in prison the church would still be out there "preaching the word" in other places. God made sure the gates of hell did not prevail against the church and has continued to do so right up until today.

[divaD]

No. Recapitulation (the same events shown from different angles or giving a summary or added details to something mentioned earlier) is common in the book of Revelation. In Rev 12:6 we learn that the woman flees into the wilderness after the ascension of the man child to heaven, which is referring to Christ's ascension to the right hand of the Father in heaven. Then Rev 12:14 gives more details and we learn that the woman flees into the wilderness after Satan has been cast down from heaven and persecutes her. After Christ's ascension there was great persecution against the church (led by Saul) and we can read about that in Acts 7-8. That's what I believe Rev 12 is referring to when it speaks of Satan persecuting the woman. But Satan was not allowed to destroy the church.

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. 2And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him. 3As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison. 4Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.

The way that the church was kept safe in the wilderness was by being "scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria". So, the wilderness represents places outside of Jerusalem. So, even if Saul had managed to have every Christian in Jerusalem either killed or put in prison the church would still be out there "preaching the word" in other places. God made sure the gates of hell did not prevail against the church and has continued to do so right up until today.

This is a great explanation and all, so not trying to take that from you, but I have to question what you mean by the woman being the church.

Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the CHURCH which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And THE CHURCH brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the CHURCH fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the CHURCH which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the CHURCH were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the CHURCH, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the CHURCH, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the CHURCH, and went to make war with the remnant of THE CHURCH'S seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


If the woman is the church, then how did the church come before the manchild, when it was thru the manchild whom the church was born?

If the woman is the church and she is protected from the face of the serpent for a time, and times, and half a time, and the serpent realizing this then goes after the remnant of her seed instead, who then would be the remnant of her seed, since it can't be the church, because she is being protected from the face of the serpent?

[RogerW]

This is a great explanation and all, so not trying to take that from you, but I have to question what you mean by the woman being the church.

Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the CHURCH which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And THE CHURCH brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the CHURCH fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the CHURCH which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the CHURCH were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the CHURCH, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the CHURCH, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the CHURCH, and went to make war with the remnant of THE CHURCH'S seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

If the woman is the church, then how did the church come before the manchild, when it was thru the manchild whom the church was born?

If the woman is the church and she is protected from the face of the serpent for a time, and times, and half a time, and the serpent realizing this then goes after the remnant of her seed instead, who then would be the remnant of her seed, since it can't be the church, because she is being protected from the face of the serpent?

Hi David,

I'm not Eric, but the church existed even before the birth of Christ. It simply did not exist universally or throughout the whole earth. It was even before Christ came "the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us" (Acts 7:38). Church is simply an assembly of people called out by God, so it is a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):--assembly, church.

And so it was the church, the Jewish nation that brought forth the Messiah...Christ was born a Jew. This is what Rev 12 means when it says upon the woman's head were twelve stars; i.e. the twelve sons of Jacob/Israel. Abraham begat Isaac, Isaac begat Jacob, and Jacob begat the nation...Messiah comes from the line of Abraham.

[RogerW]

If the woman is the church and she is protected from the face of the serpent for a time, and times, and half a time, and the serpent realizing this then goes after the remnant of her seed instead, who then would be the remnant of her seed, since it can't be the church, because she is being protected from the face of the serpent?

The church is both protected and nourished by God in the wilderness and persecuted at the same time. She is nourished when she is faithful, but when she allows unsound doctrine and practices to come in, then she is persecuted and overcome by the serpent, and just as Christ warns the candlestick (true Light) is removed.

[divaD]

Hi David,

I'm not Eric, but the church existed even before the birth of Christ.

RW, technically speaking, I agree 100%. I fully understand where you're coming from. In this context, if the woman is the church, and that's she's protected from the face of the serpent for a period of time, then why wouldn't the remnant of her seed not also be protected? There's not more than one church is there? I would think in this context, the woman is referring to something else.

EDIT: i now see you answered this in the preceding post. Didn't see that post before I posted this.

[John146]

This is a great explanation and all, so not trying to take that from you, but I have to question what you mean by the woman being the church.

Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the CHURCH which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And THE CHURCH brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the CHURCH fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the CHURCH which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the CHURCH were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the CHURCH, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the CHURCH, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the CHURCH, and went to make war with the remnant of THE CHURCH'S seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


If the woman is the church, then how did the church come before the manchild, when it was thru the manchild whom the church was born?

If the woman is the church and she is protected from the face of the serpent for a time, and times, and half a time, and the serpent realizing this then goes after the remnant of her seed instead, who then would be the remnant of her seed, since it can't be the church, because she is being protected from the face of the serpent?

I pretty much agree with what Roger said. Think of Romans 11. There, Paul refers to Israelites as natural branches of the olive tree. I see the olive tree as representing the church or Israel of God and its branches represent God's people who are members of the church. So, this symbolic olive tree existed even before Christ came because it represents the congregation of God's people.

Revelation 12 portrays the Israel of God/church as a woman with Christ and those who obey God and keep the testimony of Christ as her children. In Romans 11 Paul portrays the church as an olive tree whose root is Christ and its branches are those who have faith in Christ (Rom 11:20). Those Israelites who did not put their faith in Christ were broken off of the olive tree. As a result they were no longer God's people and part of the church. Gentile believers were grafted into the olive tree along with Israelite believers so the branches of the olive tree symbolically represent Jew and Gentile believers together as one, which is exactly how the church is described elsewhere in scripture (Eph 2:11-22).

If you think the woman in Rev 12 represents the nation of Israel then do you think the olive tree of Romans 11 represents the nation of Israel as well? I don't see how that could be the case because the only branches in the olive tree and the only children of the woman are believers. The nation of Israel did not give birth only to believers. So, it has to be referring to the Israel of God, the church.

Just as those "which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" are those who are members of the church (agree?) they are also described as children of the woman. So, put two and two together and what do you get: the remnant who keep God's commandments and have the testimony of Christ are members (children) of the church (woman). The woman is kept safe in the sense that the gates of hell cannot prevail against the church. Its members might be persecuted but the church itself cannot be destroyed.

[seeker_truth]

Hi, Jim E, Hope you enjoy your visit to end time chat..Will post answer to thread sometime tomorrow..