Water Baptism

[Slug1]

False accusation. You need to set down and count to 10 partner - the truth has been presented - Peter told those who had just believed that Jesus was the Christ that they must also repent and be baptized. You appear to have issues when the truth is presented to you. Again, your notion does not trump the word of God.

The truth has been presented to you and then you add to scripture to change the meaning to fit your truth, not God's truth.

[Matt14]

FALSE PROPHET... you just added to the Bible and changed the meaning of scripture to fit your words that tickle the ears of those who are also bound by your doctrine.

This is what the NKJV says...

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

YOU are a FALSE PROPHET and the Body of Christ are warned about types like you. Sorry dude... this is going to the report level to the leaders of this board... you need to be removed from this forum.

Slug1, hold on there, my friend. Why did the Jews in Acts 2:37 ask the question, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

Wasn't it because they beleived what Peter was preaching, that Jesus was the Son of God who rose from the dead?

LH put [had believed] in brackets because he was showing that the men in the previous verse believed. I don't think he was "adding to the word of God."

[DeafPosttrib]

losthorizon,

I want to tell you something. I did read your many posts debate about water baptism. I do 100% agree with you everything as what you saying. By the way, I am not a member of the Church of Christ. I am neutral. I am not a mamber under any religion churches. Because I disagree with all religions on doctrines. Although, myself consider nearly as baptist. Still I have LOT of disagrees with baptist doctrines.

Bible tells us very clearly, that we must believe on Jesus AND be baptized shall be saved. Being baptized, is not difficult to obey. I like the name of sporting goods company-Nike. Its' famous quote- "JUST DO IT". I agree with Nike's quote.

Why debate or argue on water baptism? Just get up and go and to obey Jesus to be baptized. It is only the first step of obedience of salvation life. Being to be baptized is not hard to do it.

Many religions as Christianity(mostly baptists, SBC, Assembly of God, etc.) saying, our salvation only by believing on Jesus, that's it. And they say, throughout in the Bible always often emphasis say: "believing". Whilst, word, 'baptized' is realy mentioned throughout the Bible. The question is, why does always the word, 'believing'(believeth in KJV) emphasis mmore often than 'baptized'? My understanding, being be baptized is a one time event in out lifetime. But, being 'believing' is NOT a one time event. it is throughout whole our Christian lifetime from our salvation(at the beginning) to our death.

Believing is a required of being commit our life to Christ throughout our lifetime till we die or Christ comes either. Believing always included obedience and faith at the same time.

When we hear the gospel, then we believe the gospel on Jesus, repent our sins, and called upon the Lord. But, also, required to be baptized is the first step of Christian life as obedience, even it is part of our salvation too.

Jesus' point is, if suppose, a person doesn't leave his father, or mother, or family, he CANNOT be his disciple. Same thing with baptized. If a person doesn't want to be baptized, then a person CANNOT be Christ's disciple! That's period.

Why argue on water baptism?

Christ commanded us to be baptized. Just obey Him, and do it. Same as what Nike's quote says: "JUST DO IT" . Being baptized is not hard to do. Why argue? JUST DO IT as we obey Him at the first step of our Christian life. Being baptized is part of our salvation. If we don't baptized, then we cannot be Christ's disciple, that means, we cannot enter eternal life. Because of our disobedience.

Secondly, being baptized is already automatically already saved for good- eternal life, no matter what we would commit our sins later in our Christian life, still saved as it called, eternal security salvation. It is NOT always unconditional security salvation, when we already baptized.

Same with many people saying- when once a person believed in Jesus, is already secured saved for good- eternal security salvation. That is like as "Easy Believism" same as OSAS. This is a false teaching.

Same with being baptized is already saved at once for good- it is also false teaching.

I am NOT saying- being baptized cannot saved us. Earlier, I did saying that being baptized is part of our salvation as step.

Even, at first, we must believe on Jesus is the first step of salvation, also, to repent our sins to Jesus, is include with 'believe' & 'confess'-called upon at the same time for salvation as process. THEN, go and be baptized is the second step of salvation as obedience. After that, we follow Christ all the way to our death.

But, when a person sinned and turn away from the Lord-AFTER believed and baptized. When a person repent to the Lord again for restoration of salvation. Should a person have to be re-baptized again? NO! A person does not have to be re-baptized again. Being baptized is a one time event. When a person rents to Christ again. That means a person have to be re-dedicate to the Lord again, by get right with the Lord.

Some religion say, a person already did believed and baptized earlier, but turn away from the Lord, got repented to Christ again, so, a perosn must be re-baptized again for salvation. I disagree with them.

Throughout in New Testament emphasis on 'believeth' more often than baptized. Because, being 'believeth' is a longtime throughout all our lifetime, it is not a one time event. When be baptized, it is a ONE time event as the first step of our salvation in our Christian life. We don't have to be re-baptized again. When can only is continue in believeing on Christ all the way to our death same with Romans 11:19-24. Or else, if we stopped believing in Him in the midst of our lifetime, by the time we die without believing on Him, we shall not be saved at the end. See? My point about the difference between 'believeth' and 'baptized'. "Believeth" is a longtime throughout our lifetime till death. "Baptized" is a ONE time event at our salvation. Understand? I hope you agree with my point.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

[losthorizon]

LH, just a reminder.....baptism of repentance for the remission of sin??
I know yuo are following a discussion but really, a proper understanding of John's baptism is of utmost importance here, and the question was asked days ago.

The Greek preposition "eis" - rendered “for” in Acts 2:38 never means "because of" and is never so interpreted. The truth remains true – we are to be baptized for [eis] the remission of sins -i,e,. in order to have our sins remitted – we are not baptized “because of” our sins already being remitted. To demonstrate this truth all we need to do is look at two parallel passages in the NT…

Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for [eis] the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38 NKJV)

For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for [eis] the remission of sins. (Matthew 26:28 NKJV)

Thayer tells us that "eis" is a "preposition governing the accusative and denoting entrance into, or direction and limit; into, to towards, for among." In other words “eis” is forward looking – never backward looking in its direction. Jesus states in Matthew 26:28 - This is my blood - shed for many for (eis) the remission of sins."

If you can answer this question correctly you will have the answer to your ‘dilemma’ - did Jesus shed His blood (1) “because of” our sins already being remitted (backward looking) or did Jesus shed His blood (2) for (eis) the remission of our sins (forward looking), i..e., did Jesus shed His blood in order that we could have our sins forgiven?

The same is true in Acts 2:28 - we are baptized not because our sins have already been remitted - we are baptized in order to have our sins forgiven via the work of Christ on the cross. Is repentance and baptism for the same thing – remission of sins?

[Slug1]

Hi Slug!

The trouble with trying to differentiate between "faith" and "believe" is that the Bible does not differentiate between the two. The same Greek word is used for both words. "Faith" is a noun (Greek πιστεύω pisteuō), and "believe" is a verb (Greek πίστις pistis), but they are from the exact same root.

To have faith is to believe, and to believe is to have faith.

So the problem then enters that belief alone cannot save. The men in John 12:42 believed Jesus, but would not confess Him, thereby making them ineligible for salvation according to Matt. 10:32-33.

Joh 12:42 Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue;
Joh 12:43 for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

Mat 10:32 "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.
Mat 10:33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

Since this is the case, that belief alone cannot save, then what else do we need?

Joh 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.

One of His commandments is:

Mar 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

What do you think about this?

Belief is what saves and both Sirus and I have posted many scriptures... allow the Holy Spirit to illuminate this for you as your read them all prayfully.

As for faith.. we are all given a measure and through our walk with Jesus and the many trials, struggles, purposes, lessons, events, and FINALLY... tests, that He puts us through... that measure of faith is increased.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

2 Cor 10:15 not boasting of things beyond measure, that is, in other men’s labors, but having hope, that as your faith is increased, we shall be greatly enlarged by you in our sphere,

Eph 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,

As for Mark 16:16... I addressed this in my last very long(ish) post.

[Matt14]

Hi Matt14. Is someone that born again and bearing fruit for lets say 1 month, 6 months, 1 year, before they are water baptism, not in Christ? Have they not already been dead, buried, raised with Christ as a new creature having already been through the circumcision of Christ made w/o hands and the operation of God having Christ the hope of glory in them?

In marriage 2 become one. Flesh is flesh/spirit is spirit. In Christ, 2 become 1 spirit by the Spirit.
1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Hi Sirus,

Well, first off, I do not believe the scriptures teach that one can be "born again" without being baptized into Christ for the remission of sins.

These passages show a clear connection between the idea of being born again and submitting to the Lord in baptism:

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Tit 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

The "washing of regeneration" in Titus 3:5 is parallel to the water element in John 3:5, and the "renewing of the Holy Spirit" is parallel to the Spirit element. Together, water and Spirit comprise the new birth.

Further, Paul says in order to be in Christ, we must put on Christ in baptism:

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Without being baptized "into Him," we cannot be "in Him."

But yes, one could do good works and not be a child of God. Remember Cornelius, who was a righteous man. God noticed his prayers, his alms, his good deeds. But he had to hear the true gospel of Christ.

Likewise if we have not been baptized into Christ, we can do all the good deeds we want, but that does not take away the fact that we have not obeyed the gospel of Christ.

We are dead, buried, and raised with Christ in baptism (Rom. 6:3-8).

[Slug1]

Slug1, hold on there, my friend. Why did the Jews in Acts 2:37 ask the question, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

Wasn't it because they beleived what Peter was preaching, that Jesus was the Son of God who rose from the dead?

LH put [had believed] in brackets because he was showing that the men in the previous verse believed. I don't think he was "adding to the word of God."

It's the context in which his message is in error. Plus the fact that the baptism Peter is speaking about is of Jesus, not of water. The moment they repent and through their belief accept Jesus as their Savior, the Holy Spirit baptizes them.

LH is twisting it all up to fit his doctrine which is only about water baptism and his doctrine says that the water baptism is what seals a person unto salvation. Not the sealing of the Holy Spirit with His baptism of fire upon belief in Christ, that Peter preached in Acts 2:38. Also Jesus said in Mark 16:16.

[losthorizon]

losthorizon,

I want to tell you something. I did read your many posts debate about water baptism. I do 100% agree with you everything as what you saying. By the way, I am not a member of the Church of Christ. I am neutral.

Thank you my friend - may God richly bless you.

[Matt14]

Belief is what saves and both Sirus and I have posted many scriptures... allow the Holy Spirit to illuminate this for you as your read them all prayfully.

As for faith.. we are all given a measure and through our walk with Jesus and the many trials, struggles, purposes, lessons, events, and FINALLY... tests, that He puts us through... that measure of faith is increased.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

2 Cor 10:15 not boasting of things beyond measure, that is, in other men’s labors, but having hope, that as your faith is increased, we shall be greatly enlarged by you in our sphere,

Eph 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,

As for Mark 16:16... I addressed this in my last very long(ish) post.

Thanks, Slug, I understand where you are coming from.

But, what do you think about the linguistics issue, that faith and believe are the same word, one in noun form, the other in verb? Do you see that the Bible does not differentiate between the two in the way you seem to be differentiating?

Also, if "believe" is all you need, how do you feel about Hebrews 11:6, which says:

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

This passage clearly shows that "faith" and "believe" are two forms of the same word, and we must have it (both of them ) in order to come to Him.

[Slug1]

Thanks, Slug, I understand where you are coming from.

But, what do you think about the linguistics issue, that faith and believe are the same word, one in noun form, the other in verb? Do you see that the Bible does not differentiate between the two in the way you seem to be differentiating?

Also, if "believe" is all you need, how do you feel about Hebrews 11:6, which says:

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

This passage clearly shows that "faith" and "believe" are two forms of the same word, and we must have it (both of them ) in order to come to Him.

Well... is faith a gift or do we produce it within ourselves and through what we produced... we empower ourselves to do impossible works of miracles? I don't think so... it would be nice but the faith that God has given us as a measure, is what we exercise and as we exercise the faith given to us... God works through and as we see Him do mighty works (He does miracles through us) our faith is increased as well as the testimony given to us through these mighty works will increase the faith of others as well.

You can tell those on the board who don't have much faith... they don't believe testimony, even if they watch it on a video and their faith remains weak... and they doubt or actually speak against might testimony of God working in the lives of Christians. Look around the board enough and read their reactions and you can pick them out... they are the voice of doubt in all the threads about miracles that are happening in the Body of Christ.

edit coming, standby..

Edit: Concerning Heb 11:6... in addition to those I just mentioned who are not pleasing God as they doubt His miracles in the Body of Christ and the testimony being posted on this message board... what about that Christian in the pew in a struggle and not going forward to an altar call for prayer? That Christian who doubts God will releave them of their struggle, or heal them, or open their spouses heart to Him, or given them the strength, or, or, or, or... what ever the problem but they doubt God will answer their prayer's let alone the prayer of that elder or pastor up at the altar??

Do you think that their "faith" is pleasing to God? The moment Peter began to sink in the water, what were Jesus' words... something along the lines of... You of little faith, correct? You think Jesus was pleased? Despite this displeasure, He still reached His hand down to Peter when he cried out to Jesus and took His hand... those Christians who doubt need to stop doubting and go to that altar during altar call and CRY OUT and take His hand. What little faith they have will increase as they are pulled up out of the water, struggle, sin etc.

I'm beginning to minister so I'll stop.

[DeafPosttrib]

I would like to add to say something on Heb. 11:6. You see these saints of Hebrews chapter 11, these are recorded what the O.T. saints done in their lifetime. They were made it all the way to their death, because of their obedience.

Same with baptized is part of obedience. If suppose a person refuses to be baptized, then it would be impossible to please God. That why to be baptized is a require to obedience for the salvation as the first step of Christian life.

[Sirus]

Clean your specs - Peter was clear in Acts - those who first believed must also repent and be baptized. What sequence do you see in this passage?

Then Peter said to them [that believed], "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Acts 2:38 NKJV)

It doesn't say that. Peter is addressing....

"Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel"
"Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel"

So while some believed and asked.....

"Act 2:37 ........what shall we do?"

Peter is still addressing

"Act 2:38 .......every one of you......[all the house of Israel]
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you [all the house of Israel]
Act 2:40 ......Save yourselves from this untoward generation.[all the house of Israel]"

[Sirus]

Slug, my friend - the baptism commanded by Peter in Acts 2:38 is immersion in water - the penitent believer who is baptized in water is the one who receives remission of sins and the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit - born of water and the Spirit.

What about you Sirus - is the baptism noted in Acts 2:38 baptism in water?

Yes, I believe it is water.

[divaD]

There is no contradiction between saying that a man is saved by grace through faith, and that he must be baptized in order to be saved.

Overall, you made some very good points in your post. But I have to question how you see no contradiction here.

and that he must be baptized in order to be saved....but he that believeth not shall be damned.

What is required that causes one to be damned? When one believes not. It doesn't say if one believes but fails to do this or that, that they are then damned. It simply states if they believe not, then they shall be damned. Absolutely nothing about believing and also being damned. But when you are saying that one must also be baptized in order to be saved, you are implying that one believes not, if they fail to be baptized also, thus lumping them in with the damned who believe not.

Perhaps technically speaking, believing on Jesus and being baptized mean the same thing. You can't have one without the other. An example.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Does the above exclude the ones that were never water baptized? If one believes, and is water baptized a month later, are they excluded from 1 Corinthians 12:13 until that time? I still believe Romans 6 sheds a lot of light on the subject overall.

BTw my point isn't that one shouldn't be baptized, but is, if one isn't baptized, does this mean they are not saved, thus they are damned instead?

[Matt14]

It's the context in which his message is in error. Plus the fact that the baptism Peter is speaking about is of Jesus, not of water. The moment they repent and through their belief accept Jesus as their Savior, the Holy Spirit baptizes them.

LH is twisting it all up to fit his doctrine which is only about water baptism and his doctrine says that the water baptism is what seals a person unto salvation. Not the sealing of the Holy Spirit with His baptism of fire upon belief in Christ, that Peter preached in Acts 2:38. Also Jesus said in Mark 16:16.

Okay, I understand what you are saying. Let's take one small step here in trying to understand each other better.

On the baptism that occurs in Acts 2:38, I think the easiest way to understand it is this:

First, after His resurrection and just before His ascension, Jesus gave the apostles the Great Commission.

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

The command consisted of "going," "making disciples," "baptizing them," and "teaching them."

Who was the command to "baptize" given to?

Well, it was given to the apostles. So it was something a man could do to another man.

On the other hand, the baptism of the Holy Spirit in Matt. 3:11 was something that Jesus is said to do, not His disciples:

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

This truth does not cancel out the baptism of the Great Commission, but rather the Great Commission baptism and the baptism with the Holy Spirit must be two different things.

Look at it this way. Jesus just told the disicples to baptize, making disciples. It was a command they themselves could comply with. The baptism with the Holy Spirit is something only Jesus was said to do.

Jesus told the apostles to stay in Jerusalem until they received power from on high. Acts 1:5 says this power to come would indeed be the baptism of the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised (Matt. 3:11). It happened in Acts 2:1-4.

Then, on the first opportunity the apostles had to preach the gospel with this newly-given power of the Holy Spirit, which seems more likely?

1. That they preached something different than what Jesus told them to preach? After all, He said to baptize people, which was a command they could do themselves.

or

2. That they preached exactly what Jesus told them to, a baptism that they could perform on other people, which was a baptism in water in accordance with other baptisms we see in the NT (Acts 8 and 10, for instance).

It seems more logical to me that Jesus baptized the apostles with the Holy Spirit, in order to fulfill the promise that they would be given the Spirit in order that they might have total recall of all things He had taught them (John 14:26; 16:13). This was a miraculous event that only Jesus could do. Then the apostles preached perfectly, announcing the terms of the New Covenant, which included baptisnm in water (the kind of baptism that a man could perform) in Acts 2:38.

That's my understanding of this situation.