Am I correct in assuming then that you deny the aposltes words?
No, he couldn't have. If he had he would have been contradicting both Christ and the other apostsles.He could have easily said the same thing about Baptism. "If you receive [baptism] Christ will be of no benefit to you", and "in Christ neither [baptism] nor [unbaptism] means anything but faith working through love."
Now you are mixing obedience to Christ with rituals of the Law. Where does Paul speak of "Rituals" as saving? When he speaks of circumcision, he is speaking of the Law of Moses, which we know the Jews thought was a means of justification. That is the argument that Paul makes.Why do I say this? According to Paul's theology, we aren't saved on the basis of a ritual we perform, as in circumcision, but according to our heart condition. This is why he can say that we are saved by apart from the works of the law, because ritual expressions of the faith are not necessary or essential.
No, in saying that is seems to indicate to me that you have missed the point of what Peter and Paul are saying. Paul is not arguing that an act of obedience has no bearing on salvation. He is arguing that the Mosaic Law is not a means of justification. Thinking one could be justified by keeping the Mosaic Law was the thinking of the Jews, Paul argues that this is not so. Using your logic then, one could also conclude that repentance isn't necessary either, are we going to go there?If one wants to argue that Baptism is essential and necessary, then one must also argue that keeping the Sabbath, keeping the festivals, not mixing cloth, and circumcision are essential for salvation. The logic is entirely the same and if we don't get that, we totally miss what Paul was saying and what Peter was asking Israel to do.
Agreed, however, one must still get into the tub.Peter wasn't asking Israel to get baptized because stepping into a tub of water did anything. Peter was asking Israel to get baptized because getting baptized into Jesus meant that I agreed to be a disciple of Christ and believe what he taught, and the reason why I would do such a thing is because I meant it. I get into the pool, knowing that getting into the pool means that I want to be a follower of Jesus, worship him as Lord, agree with his teaching, accept the fact that I am a sinner in need of access to God via a mediator, etc. And I believe this with all my heart.
You might want to check with the apostles on this one. It seems now you are contradicting two apostles.Paul argues that the Gentiles don't need to get circumcised, not because God substituted one external expression of the faith (circumcision) with another external expression of the faith (baptism) but because external expressions of the faith are meaningless "in Christ." We aren't placed "in Christ" through an external expression of the faith, but through an inner transformation of the spirit.
Galatians 3:26-27 ( KJV )We aren't placed "in Christ" through an external expression of the faith
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
It seems that Paul thinks one is entered into Christ through an external expression of faith.
Let's be more precise. He says if the Gentiles which do not have the Law do in their hearts the things in the Law they are a Law unto themselves. He is expressly talking about people who did not have the Law, he is not talking about People who had the Law and simply either ignored it or refused to obey it.In Romans 2, Paul argues that if a man did the things of the law, even if he wasn't circumcised, it would be as if he was circumcised.
Well, you are making an assumption that again is contradictory to the apostles words. You said,And I believe he would say the same thing about baptism and or the same reason. If a man loves God, has the spirit of God in him, believes what Christ said, worships Jesus, loves him, obeys his teaching, but hasn't (for some reason) been baptized, then it would be as if he was baptized. Why? Baptism can be, but not necessarily be, an outward expression of an internal faith. If a man has the internal faith, trust, humility, humbleness, love for God, etc. he already has what the baptism would represent if he had been baptized. There is nothing magic about the Baptism itself. For those in Christ, baptism or not being baptized means nothing.
According to the apostle a man does not have the Spirit of God in him until after he is baptized.If a man loves God, has the spirit of God in him,
However, even if we were to accept your statement, let me ask you a question, you said,
Why would this be good enough for this man and yet not good enough for Abraham? You see God knew Abraham's heart also, He knew that Abraham would offer up Isaac if He asked him to. Why wasn't that enough? Why did God make Abraham go through with offering up Isaac? Also notice what God said when Abraham did offer Isaac in "Obedience" to God's command.And I believe he would say the same thing about baptism and or the same reason. If a man loves God, has the spirit of God in him, believes what Christ said, worships Jesus, loves him, obeys his teaching, but hasn't (for some reason) been baptized, then it would be as if he was baptized. Why? Baptism can be, but not necessarily be, an outward expression of an internal faith. If a man has the internal faith, trust, humility, humbleness, love for God, etc. he already has what the baptism would represent if he had been baptized. There is nothing magic about the Baptism itself. For those in Christ, baptism or not being baptized means nothing.
Genesis 22:15-18 ( KJV )
And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Notice God's words, "because thou hast done this thing". He didn't say because you really believed in your heart, no, He said "Because you have done this thing". The oath was sworn to Abraham because he "Obeyed" God's command.
So, if Abraham didn't receive the oath by simple believing in his heart, why would your hypothetical Christian receive the Spirit without obedience?
~Do not quench the Spirit ~ 1 Thessalonians 5:19~
~"So what hardship are you willing to endure, to see My will accomplished through you?"~
~Your relationship isn't knowing "ABOUT" GOD! Relationship is to "KNOW" GOD,
so that in the end and you stand before Him for the first time in heavenÖ HE KNOWS YOU~
~Do we, as Christians witness Jesus to the lost because we love Jesus? Or do we witness Jesus to the lost because we love them as Jesus loves them?~
~A prompting from God means that you are to DO. Thinking, causes you to... NOT DO!~
~Being on the tall mountain is where "you" go, to meet with God. Being in the deep valley is where "God" goes, to meet with you!~
"I do. There's no difference here. The life of the new creature is God's testimony. I am sorry you have not seen God's resurrection power in this manner. It is the norm to some degree if one is indeed born of God. No one is born of God and remains the same entirely."
John's baptism "did not point to the act of baptism removing sins"
It pointed to
"believing in Him that came after him for remission of sins"
Are you suggesting I was not born again?1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
He needed to turn, not repent. If he had not repented he would not have been a disciple of Jesus.
Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. (Romans 6:3-5 ESV)
The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christís death and burial and to our death to sin (Rom. 6:1), forwards to Christís resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave ~ F. B. Meyer.
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit...He who believes and is baptized will be saved... ~ Jesus Christ
...eight persons, were saved by water. Baptism, which is symbolized by that water, now saves you also, not by removing dirt from the body, but by asking God for a clear conscience based on the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
(1Pe 3:20-21 ISV)
1 Per 3:21. The sense is, that baptism, including all that is properly meant by baptism as a religious rite - that is, baptism administered in connection with true repentance, and true faith in the Lord Jesus, and when it is properly a symbol of the putting away of sin, and of the renewing influences of the Holy Spirit, and an act of unreserved dedication to God - now saves us. ~ Albert Barnes
And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'
(Act 22:16 NKJV)
1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
I've always found this concept intriguing. It says eight souls were saved by water. First there's the deluge. What did it do? It washed away the sins of the world, quite literally, as in the wicked perished. This same water the wicked perished in, these 8 souls were saved in. What happened when the waters dried up? Sin had been washed away, 8 souls were saved, and life was started anew, and once again, quite literally in this case. To me, that seems to be the same concept as water baptism. One is emmerced under water, which represents washing away sins, and in this same water they are also saved, and when they arise out of it, they are a new creature, because their old self washed away when they went under, and their new self emerged when they came up. Perhaps it's just me, but it appears those 8 souls were indeed saved by water, the same waters that washed away the sins of the world at the time. And it appears they started over at that time, since they were told to replinish the earth. It's almost as if they had been born again and given a new chance in life.
And of course, I may be way off here, but this is what enters my mind for some reason when I think of the flood, and water baptism.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)