Water Baptism

[Sirus]

God forgives sins baptism does not forgive sins. You will need to clarify what you mean when you say - "What he told them to do, is what forgives sin." What did God tell them to do?

Believe on Jesus Christ is the remission of sins.

Mar 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

[BroRog]

Just because you believe it doesn't make it so. First of all, I don't know who is saying baptism is means of justification. Baptism is done after one is justified by faith, it is necessary for salvation in the end.

Dude, it's the same thing.

I understand your logic, the problem is, it flies in the face of Scripture. You keep speaking of the heart condition, which I agree is necessary, however, it does not stop there as you seem to want to believe. According to Jesus one "Must" obey his commands, one "Must" believe and be baptized, one "Must" repent. It doesn't matter what one's heart condition is if they continue to live in adultery, or if they they do not do "His" commands. You can say the one who loves Jesus has a good heart, but Jesus said 'He who does my commands, it is he who loves me.' It's easy for one to convince themselves that they love Jesus and go about their way, however they are only fooling themselves, not Jesus, if they don't obey He says they don't love Him. So, since it was Jesus Himself who gave the command to be baptized, if one is not baptized (Assuming the have the opportunity) they are not obeying His commands and therefore according to His words they do not love Him.

The thing is, Jesus didn't command anyone to get baptized.

Cultural practice?
Here again we have an assumption.

It's not an assumption. Simply review the passages in which baptism is mentioned.

I have not seen any such promise made in Scripture, it seems you are assuming as much.

Again, this is not an assumption. Follow Paul's argument in Romans 2. His argument for why a man without circumcision who keeps the covenant is like a man who has circumcision, is the same for baptism. Since baptism is the initiation ritual for becoming a disciple of Jesus, if a man is already a disciple of Jesus, he is considered "baptized" even if he has never had an opportunity to get into the pool.

Again, another assumption. Please show me one Christian in the NT that was not water baptized. If there are none then your statement is just an assumption, and in light of the fact that water baptism was a regular practice in the NT church it would seem a very inaccurate one.

I don't need to find such an example. The presence or absence of such an example is beside the point. Once we understand what the cultural practice of baptism was, we know that the ritual isn't necessary at all. Baptism was a cultural ritual practice, which indicated a students agreement to be immersed in the teaching of a particular teacher. This is why, when Jesus commanded his apostles to make followers for him, he commanded them to baptize in his name.

So, you're going to answer my question with a question? The answer was easy, it wasn't good enough, just as simply believing in his heart wasn't enough for Abraham it also isn't enough for your hypothetical Christian.

You haven't yet made the connection between Abraham and my hypothetical Christian.

Again, we have assumptions. Where does Scripture say that Baptism was a cultural practice? And, even if we agreed that it was, it wouldn't matter because Jesus said to make disciples, 'Baptizing" them and teaching them all that I have commanded you. He didn't say go make disciples using what ever method is popular that the time. The way He said to do it is the way we are to do it.

I don't believe you when you say it wouldn't matter. Of course it matters. If I am right, and I think I am, the commands to be baptized were actually commands to become disciples because that was the currently accepted practice for making a disciple. Today, for instance, coming forward is the currently accepted practice for making a disciple. All of those people who came forward at a Billy Graham crusade, who pledged to become a disciple of Jesus, who gave their heart to the Lord, who committed themselves to living according to his teaching, who love God, love Jesus, thank him everyday for what he did for them -- these folks are baptized "into" Christ even if they never got into a pool of water.

[Sirus]

Just because you believe it doesn't make it so.

great! Now apply this to your previous post and you've answered it for me.

[losthorizon]

Believe on Jesus Christ is the remission of sins.

How do you explain Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 or do you ignore them? In your theology must one repent before "remission of sins" or was Jesus mistaken? No my friend - faith comes by hearing and faith in Christ is the first step but if we are to consider all of God's word pertaining to salvation we must consider the words of Jesus and Peter - we must believe, repent and be baptized. You still miss the mark.

[Sirus]

Wow, first they don't believe Jesus, now they don't believe God.

John said they had to believe on Messiah for remission of sins.

I did answer concerning John, however, you said you didn't agree.

No, you did not. Here is what you asked.
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...25#post2552625

Concerning Acts 2:38, I notice you nor the rest who hold your opinion have dealt with it. It is a clear statement, yet you guys continue to try to sidestep it.

Many of us have continually addressed it. I did today. Just because you do not agree doesn't mean we did not address it. That's intellectual dishonesty, to say the least.

[Sirus]

How do you explain Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38

What did I say?

[losthorizon]

...these folks are baptized "into" Christ even if they never got into a pool of water.

Only one who is baptized in water - into His death is baptized into Christ (Rom 6:3-5). Anyone who would say that God-ordained baptism in water is a take-it or leave-it option has no business discussing baptism. The NT does not know of an un-baptized Christian.

[losthorizon]

What did I say?

More importantly - what did Jesus say..."he who believes and is baptized shall be saved..."

[thedee]

How do you explain Mark 16:16

Compare Mark 16:16 with John 3:18,36:

"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." - Mark 16:16
"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." - John 3:36
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." - John 3:18

As you will see it is a failure of belief that causes one to go to hell..... not a failure to be baptized. So clearly belief in Christ is what saves the soul and saves them from hell. What you are doing with Mark 16:16 is taking belief+baptism = salvation. You need to take scripture as a whole. When John 3:18,36 was penned did John forget to mention water baptism? Do you see a contradiction between Mark 16:16 and John 3:36? I don't see a contradition.... but your view makes it a contradiction.

Belief in Christ is what saves the soul. Not water baptism.

[losthorizon]

Compare Mark 16:16 with John 3:18,36:

When we consider everything presented by God in Mark 16:16 and John 3:18,36 we see that the one who believes and is baptized is the one who will be saved - there is no contradiction between the passages as you appear to suggest. The one who refuses to believe will refuse to be baptized calling on the name of the Lord. God is not the author of confusion but you remain confused because of your sectarian biases.

Belief in Christ is what saves the soul. Not water baptism.

False assumption - it is the blood of Christ alone that saves the soul and according to Holy Writ it is the one who believes, repents and is baptized who will be saved by the blood of Christ.

Did you ever figure out how "baptism now saves us" as noted in 1 Peter 3:21 or are you still scratching your head?

[thedee]

Did you ever figure out how "baptism now saves us" as noted in 1 Peter 3:21 or are you still scratching your head?

"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" - 1 Peter 3:21

Is it the water that saves or the thing that is is a like figure of? It was not the water that saved the 8 person of v20. Itwas the ark that saved them from drowning in the flood. So baptism in water does not save the soul, but faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, that which baptism is a figure of, does save the soul.

A mere figure can have no power to save, but the reality of the figure can.

[losthorizon]

Is it the water that saves or the thing that is is a like figure of? It was not the water that saved the 8 person of v20.

But Peter is clear and he disagrees with your opinion. Peter tells us that *eight souls were saved by water* - what part of saved by water are you missing? He then makes an interesting statement by saying those *saved by water* on the Ark corresponds to the fact that *baptism now saves us*. What does he mean? How did water *save* those on the Ark and how does *baptism now save us* today? Is the baptism noted in this passage H20 type baptism (water baptism) or do you also 'spritualize' water here as you do in John 3:5?

[thedee]

But Peter is clear and he disagrees with your opinion. Peter tells us that *eight souls were saved by water* - what part of saved by water are you missing?

I think you missed it when it says "The like figure". I ask again, is it the water that saves or the thing that is is a like figure of?

Is the baptism noted in this passage H20 type baptism (water baptism) or do you also 'spritualize' water here as you do in John 3:5?

In John 6:35 when Jesus said:
"And Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst."

Was Jesus saying He was a loaf of bread and we could cut a slice out of Him and eat it?

Same as John 3:5. Water is refered to here as the word of God as 1 Peter 1:23 confirms. Do you believe when you read the word of God it has a purifying/cleansing affect on you? Can you answer that?

"that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word" - Eph 5:26

[losthorizon]

I think you missed it when it says "The like figure". I ask again, is it the water that saves or the thing that is is a like figure of?

I am going to take God at His word – baptism, when connected with repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus – “now saves us” as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The sense is, that baptism, including all that is properly meant by baptism as a religious rite - that is, baptism administered in connection with true repentance, and true faith in the Lord Jesus, and when it is properly a symbol of the putting away of sin, and of the renewing influences of the Holy Spirit, and an act of unreserved dedication to God - now saves us. ~ Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible

"that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word" - Eph 5:26

A word of advice - if you are trying to use Eph 5:26 to defeat baptism you are self-defeating your own argument. The *washing of water* is a direct reference to baptism in water. Baptism in conjunction with the influence of the Holy Spirit and the doctrine of Christ crucified = spiritual cleansing.

Eph 5:26
With the washing of water - Baptism, accompanied by the purifying influences of the Holy Spirit..

By the word - The doctrine of Christ crucified, through which baptism is administered, sin canceled, and the soul purified from all unrighteousness; the death of Christ giving efficacy to all. ~ Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible

[thedee]

When we consider everything presented by God in Mark 16:16 and John 3:18,36 we see that the one who believes and is baptized is the one who will be saved - there is no contradiction between the passages as you appear to suggest.

If you read post 309 again you will see I said "I don't see a contradition". So why do you try to make it sound as tho I say there is a contradiction? Isn't that being dishonest?