why all the arguing?

[karenoka27]

I'm confused. God is not the author of confusion so where is it coming from?
The threads recently have been whether or not gifts are for today, apostle, prophet etc.. Then we have threads talking about whether God is speaking to you today, and "not" through His Word, but in other ways.
Some say God is speaking to them and some say if He isn't then you aren't listening, or you just don't have the gift of hearing from God because if you did you would be a prophet or an apostle?

What saddens me is that some think that it is not enough that God speaks to us through His Word. Do I believe He speaks in other ways? Yes, of course. We have the Holy Spirit in us. Our God is alive and interacts with us. But God's Word is alive! His very words are given us to live by.
Hebrews 4:12-"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

Luke 4:4-"And Jesus answered him, saying,"It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God."

I fear that if we rely on "hearing" from God without His word, it just might be someone else we are hearing from....How do you know?

[Scruffy Kid]

I'm confused. God is not the author of confusion so where is it coming from?
What saddens me is that some think that it is not enough that God speaks to us through His Word. Do I believe He speaks in other ways? Yes, of course. We have the Holy Spirit in us. Our God is alive and interacts with us. But God's Word is alive! His very words are given us to live by.
Hebrews 4:12-"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

Luke 4:4-"And Jesus answered him, saying,"It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God."

I agree, and would like to make a further point.

I apologize, Karen, if this is not exactly the direction you were going, and if so, it's OK with me to delete my post.

I don't see a lot of posts which are exploring practical Christianity: how to live out the faith given us, and how to think about it.

"Practical Christianity" as I'm using the term doesn't just mean outward behavior, or even attitudes, but also core beliefs.

Here are a few topics:
1. Psalm 23: The Lord is my Shepherd: How do we come to God, to Christ, as our shepherd, according to this psalm?
2. Psalm 46: God is in the Midst of His City, and will help us speedilly: How do we trust in God according to this psalm?
3. The Lord's prayer. How should we learn to pray, going through our Lord's model prayer in detail?
4. Col. 1: Christ has made all things, and made peace by His cross. Discussing this passage in detail, or applying it to our lives.
5. Romans 12-13: Offer yourselves as a living sacrifice to God. How does this come out of the rest of Romans (Chapter 11, esp.)
....What exactly are the various points Paul makes saying? How do they relate to each other?
....How do we live them out in our lives?
6. Jesus repeatedly tells us to forgive. What do these passages have to do with our anger and resentment. How do we apply the wealth
....of Jesus' teaching here to help our hearts grow in grace.
7. The Sermon on the Mount. What is the meaning and importance of each of the beattitudes. What's the place of obedience as the text
....of Scripture here teaches us? How is this related to God's abundant goodness.

I think we used to have more threads like this. About the text of the bible, not controversy. Biblical, yet also practical.
Edifying to the heart. Core to the Gospel, and to living it out. It would be helpful to me, a weak guy, to have more
like this!!

[Fenris]

We're discussing, not arguing. At least that's how I see it.

[the rookie]

We're discussing, not arguing. At least that's how I see it.

A Jewish friend of mine who lives in Jerusalem once told me that, in Israel, "arguing is our national sport"

[Fenris]

A Jewish friend of mine who lives in Jerusalem once told me that, in Israel, "arguing is our national sport"

Oh yeah the debates get very heated there. But they don't get mad, they love it.

[Br. Barnabas]

I think the problem and disagreements (I agree with Fenris, most of the time it is discussion, until some people start to attack), start to come when people discount others experiences. For example who am I to say that Slug has not had the experience he stated above? Who is someone else to say that my experiences are invalid. Most of the points in the discussion seem to come from denominational doctrines or personal preference, rather than biblical support. If someone speaks in tongues, has a vision, is given a word for someone, or while praying hears from God, who is to say that the person did not experience God in these ways.

We can and all do experience God in many different ways. A God who does not fit into the whole universe is a lot bigger than we know and can understand. Just because he is big enough to work with people in many different ways does not give anyone the right to say that someone cannot or does not experience God in this or that way, or even that he is limited to only working in such and such a way. Not even all the Prophets in the Old Testament experienced God in the same way. Not all the people in the NT experienced God the same way. There have been a lot of different ways people have experienced God throughout the history of the Church. But in all these places people have not discredited others experiences. They rejoiced that God revealed himself to some in different ways. Not everyone has the same personality type and are going to experience even small things like books, movies, songs, not even to mention God in different ways.

[the rookie]

To the OP, I'll throw out a question - how do you think that we come to Ephesians 4 and "unity of the faith"; or Philippians 2 and "one accord, like-minded, with the same love and of one mind"?

I know that the answer isn't "debating on Bible Forums" - but it is fairly practical to work these things through together knowing that there aren't multiple choice answers to these hard questions of denominational preference, church culture, doctrinal differences, etc. Unity is in our future, according to the prayer of Jesus in John 17 - but getting there is messier than any of us care to admit or confront.

These kinds of issues plagued the 1st century church as well - to come to unity in the faith they had to work through really difficult issues: what does it mean for a Gentile convert to embrace the Jewish faith in the New Covenant? What place did circumcision have for the Gentile - the customs of Moses (Galatians)?

How were the Gentile and Jewish believers to relate to one another as "one new man" when, in truth, there were real cultural barriers making life difficult to worship together (Romans)?

How were new believers, immature and carnal, to exercise the gifts of the Spirit in a way that exalted Jesus when, by definition, immaturity naturally exalts self? How were they to deal with the seeming differences and factions related to the different teachers - Paul, Peter, Apollos (Corinthians)?

What should a post-revival church do to progress into full maturity - and what does the fullness of God look like for the body of Christ (Ephesians)?

What do you do when the men have become passive and prayerless, and the young widows "busybodies" and "gossips" stirring up dissent (1 Timothy)?

How do you navigate those who insist on abstaining from some things, observing other things, and promoting an external spirituality knit to angels and false holiness (Colossians)?

What exactly was the nature of Jesus - fully man, fully God - or did He just "seem" to be a man (Gospel of John, 1 John)?

Today there are new factions and differences in perspective, emphasis, and outlook that need to be worked through - but really we're on the tail end of a 2000 year journey that is about to be finished related to "unity of the faith" and the fullness of the New Testament church before His return. It's just not that clean or easy - but it IS very practical to work through these things.

[karenoka27]

I love you guys! And I thank you for patience and graciousness as I try to make my point.
Scruffy: Yes, that was my point. Discussing topics in order to encourage each other as we grow in the grace and knowledge or our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 3:18)
I think it seems at times like the disciples when they argued about who would be the greatest.
Mark 9:33-35-"They came to Capernaum. When he was in the house, he asked them, “What were you arguing about on the road?” 34 But they kept quiet because on the way they had argued about who was the greatest."
But Jesus said:
35-" Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, “Anyone who wants to be first must be the very last, and the servant of all.”

Slug: I agree wholeheartedly. I too have been awakened to pray for someone (one time for someone very close to me who was going to have an abortion the next day. I was awakened and encouraged to pray all night. The next morning I couldn't get to the house fast enough. She was lying in the bed crying. I thought because she had gone through with it. She didn't. She said "what do I do now?) And many other times.
I am not saying that I don't believe that God speaks to us, but it just seems like in some of the posts, we are disregarding the fact the God does speak to us through His Word.

Moonglow: Yes! But to go along with what Slug said, if he awakened to pray for someone, you won't find that exact thing in the Bible. You will find Pray for one another (James 5:16).However, if someone says "God told them to divorce their wife and they will be blessed" you won't find that. I have a friend whose husband told her just that.
So yes, when we hear from God it should always line up with Scripture.
When I said The Holy Spirit speaking to us, that is biblical.
Acts 4:8-"Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: “Rulers and elders of the people!..."
The Spirit convicts the world of sin in John 16:8, He teaches us in 1 Corinthians 2:12-13.
When I said we have to be careful that the voices we are hearing are from God and not someone else, I meant just that.
Satan poses as an angel of light and would love nothing more than for us to think we are hearing from God ...this is why it has to line up with Scripture.

Fenris: I agree. And perhaps the title of my thread was inappropriate. I apologize.

Br. Barnabus: yes, I agree. Here is what frustrates me, and perhaps you can all help me. Why do we all believe different things? We all agree that no one goes to the Father but through the Son, I hope. John 14:6. I have been in Pentacostal churches and have never spoke in tongues. I've heard so many different ways in explaining what it means. Some say it is a prayer language and they don't have to know what they are saying, they just know they are communicating with God. I communicate with God in my own language. I have been told in the past that if I don't speak in tongues, then I have never received the Holy Spirit. Which leads to another discussion which leads to who is saved and who has lost it. For those topics we all have the Word of God, and we all believe we are right. Hence a discussion board with different personalities...I get that.

Rookie- I get that. When you said, "How were the Gentile and Jewish believers to relate to one another as "one new man" when, in truth, there were real cultural barriers making life difficult to worship together (Romans)? " but what about what I shared above? What about discussions on whether apostles or prophets are for today? Is there an answer or do we all at the end of a discussion come to the conclusion that we must agree to disagree?

I love the Lord my God with all of my heart. I love His Word. I love prayer and the blessings I have received from Him through the years.
I want more! I am desperate for Him daily.
When I read discussions on salvation, tongues, gifts for today, I get confused. And yet God says He is not the author of confusion. I am not accusing Him of lying, I am only trying to understand why the confusion?

[RabbiKnife]

Why do we assume that the "confusing of the language" at the Tower of Babel was a localized event?

God has revealed to us that of Himself which He wishes to reveal. He is inscrutable, incomprehensible. We all see just a portion, depending on our experience and our perspective, and we all pound our chests and trumpet about that minute portion that we have seen.

It is best that we not demean those who stand at a slightly different angle and see through a slightly different perspective.


Read carefully the last stanza, and see if you recognize anything...

by John Godrey Saxe

I.
It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.

II.
The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
"God bless me!-but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!"

III.
The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried: "Ho!-what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me't is mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!"

IV.
The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a snake!"

V.
The Fourth reached out his eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
"What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," quoth he;
"'Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!"

VI.
The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!"

VII.
The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a rope!"

VIII.
And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

MORAL.
So, oft in theologic wars
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!

[karenoka27]

Yes, this makes perfect sense. So we are all discussing what we know of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. This reminds me of the verse:
1 Corinthians 13:12-"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

[the rookie]

In terms of your question to me, my answer was that there is one definitive answer to each of the questions we're wrestling with now - these aren't multiple choice deals - and, as the first generation of believers early on "landed" their conclusions (no circumcision required for Gentiles, fully God AND fully man, etc.) the generation that's alive on the earth at the Lord's return will come into the unity of the faith (including doctrinal unity). So right now, we can't "land" the issues definitively, but we will in time.

[karenoka27]

In terms of your question to me, my answer was that there is one definitive answer to each of the questions we're wrestling with now - these aren't multiple choice deals - and, as the first generation of believers early on "landed" their conclusions (no circumcision required for Gentiles, fully God AND fully man, etc.) the generation that's alive on the earth at the Lord's return will come into the unity of the faith (including doctrinal unity). So right now, we can't "land" the issues definitively, but we will in time.

But why can't we? If we are truly seeking Him, and so many of us on this board are, why can't we come to the same conclusion now?
There is a song called "In the Secret Place" It says:
"I want to know You
I want to hear Your voice
I want to know You more..."
If we are each desiring this, why do we come to different conclusions?
Please forgive me if you keep telling me, and I'm not getting it.

[notuptome]

But why can't we? If we are truly seeking Him, and so many of us on this board are, why can't we come to the same conclusion now?
There is a song called "In the Secret Place" It says:
"I want to know You
I want to hear Your voice
I want to know You more..."
If we are each desiring this, why do we come to different conclusions?
Please forgive me if you keep telling me, and I'm not getting it.

The nature of man is contrary to the nature of God. We are all in the process of sanctification, a process that will not be complete until were are in His presence.

The forums are a good place to exercise the liberal debate of issues that cannot be done in the local church because they can be disruptive and even cause some to struggle. A local church pastor is wise to guard the flock from such perils.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Brother Mark]

But why can't we? If we are truly seeking Him, and so many of us on this board are, why can't we come to the same conclusion now?
There is a song called "In the Secret Place" It says:
"I want to know You
I want to hear Your voice
I want to know You more..."
If we are each desiring this, why do we come to different conclusions?
Please forgive me if you keep telling me, and I'm not getting it.

A lot of it has to do with the heart Karen. Remember the parable of the sower and the seed? Matthew 13 says that they when they "don't understand it is snatched away". So our understanding gets blocked and when that happens, the enemy can snatch the word. What blocks it? Attitudes, sin, beliefs, etc.

One of the hardest things I ever had to do was walk away from what I was taught. Once God started setting me free in some areas of my heart, it became easier to lay aside things I was taught wrongly. But initially, it was very, very hard. Thing is, most of us read the bible with our preconceived notions intact. Walking away from them can be very difficult.

Grace and peace,

Mark

[Br. Barnabas]

Br. Barnabus: yes, I agree. Here is what frustrates me, and perhaps you can all help me. Why do we all believe different things? We all agree that no one goes to the Father but through the Son, I hope. John 14:6. I have been in Pentacostal churches and have never spoke in tongues. I've heard so many different ways in explaining what it means. Some say it is a prayer language and they don't have to know what they are saying, they just know they are communicating with God. I communicate with God in my own language. I have been told in the past that if I don't speak in tongues, then I have never received the Holy Spirit. Which leads to another discussion which leads to who is saved and who has lost it. For those topics we all have the Word of God, and we all believe we are right. Hence a discussion board with different personalities...I get that.

I think we all believe different things because of the personality differences and different ways of reading the Bible. Not everyone has the same way of reading and understanding the Bible. Just as we all experience God in a different way so to do we experience the Bible in a different way. There is no way anyone can read the Bible without bringing something of their own experience/their own experience of God to it. We all bring things to the table and filter the text through our own experiences and beliefs. These are things that are all far too big to see the same way all the time. I will give you an example, let's take the grand canyon or the earth itself, now if we are standing at the edge of the canyon we cannot see how big it really is, we can get an idea of its size but the full scope of our vision cannot take it all in when we are at the edge. In the same way with the earth we cannot see how large it is or how different it is standing where we are on it. We must back up/move upward to get the full scope of these large objects. How much more so with God. If we focus in on one aspect of God or look at him from a great, although somewhat limited scope of just the Bible, than we are not see the full scope of the revelation of God, we have to move our view outward, ie gaze at the creation, the universe, other people, the Spirit moving in us and in those around us. In this way we can start to get a larger picture of our God, but even taking these into account we cannot gaze upon the full revelation or the full nature/person of God.

In the Anglican tradition we love the Bible but we also try to look at Tradition and Reason to define our theology. The Weslyan traditions, Methodists, Nazarine, etc. take this a step further, into what is called the Wesley Quadrilateral. Encompassing Scripture, Tradition, Reason, and Experience. I believe only when we start to step back from just the Bible do we start to see God in other ways and in more ways. The Bible is great and is the final authority in matters but it never claims to be the only way to experience God or only or complete revelation of who God is. It contains all things necessary for salvation but not all the answers that people ask about God. It was not written to be a systematic theology or a doctrinal handbook.