The Old Serpent cast down to earth.

[Beckrl]

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Let's say this is talking about satan. Notice this in verse 13 of Isaiah 14...in the sides of the north. I think we are to understand that from the perspective of Psalms 48. Personally I believe Isaiah 14 is to be understood in the spiritual sense, and that it's linked to 2 Thess 2 and has nothing to do with before creation.


Psalms 48:1 A Song and Psalm for the sons of Korah.>> Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised in the city of our God, in the mountain of his holiness.
2 Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.
3 God is known in her palaces for a refuge.

RogerW brings out a very good point, again as I have also heard in my past of Isaiah 14 it was to concern Satan, but if we read through the chapter we fine the context concerns a 'man' from Babylon. Isaiah 14:16

[ross3421]

RogerW brings out a very good point, again as I have also heard in my past of Isaiah 14 it was to concern Satan, but if we read through the chapter we fine the context concerns a 'man' from Babylon. Isaiah 14:16

He's both....... Satan has not limited himself to entertaining flesh. It applies to the past as well as the future

[DurbanDude]

When you say ages past, are you referring to before creation? If so, there wouldn't have even been an earth yet, would there? I for one know no place in Scriptures where it ever speaks of satan falling prior to Genesis ch 3. Do you know of any Scriptures that would precede the fall in the garden?

Yes, before creation. Genesis 3 does not refer to the moment of Satan's fall, satan is already the evil deceiver in Genesis 3. Before this, Satan was a blessed created being in heaven, who rebelled and was cast out.

[DurbanDude]

First of all this 'heavenly place' or high places would that be the same region that Christ set us?

Eph.2:6 "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"

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I would say that they are two different places. Us Christians are spiritually already in heaven.
The other place is this:
Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Ephesians 3:10
His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms

So how is this to be understood? Are we physically raise to sit together with our brothers in Christ in these heavenly places. Are should we understand that as a spiritual concept as the reconcilication of both Jews and Gentiles. The concept of the 'spirit of the air' is the same as how Jesus discribed those born again of the Spirit. This only tells us 'HOW' the spirits work, but not where they work, for they work in the hearts of men whether to do good or evil. It is this that we war against and not flesh and blood men, but the spirit with in them.

I don't believe that the verse about us being in heavenly places is a reference to the reconciliation of Gentiles and Jews. I believe it is a reference to our current spitiual standing of onenes with God.

So in context to high places 'heavenly places' related to; 'against powers, against the rulers of the darkness[unbelief] of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places [places of authority]. Of those men that would have power and authority over them to not turn and fight against them which is over you [flesh and blood] but rather fight the good fight of faith having the full armour of God. To know it's not the man, but the spirit of darkness that we fight in this world.

True.

On the another note Satan would have to deceive the nations [Israel] before he would be casted down (Rev.12:9 & Rev.20:3) Truly this isn't at the time of the garden, but rather after the nations of Israel in whom he deceived and those whom he didn't he accused before God.

I believe a careful reading of Rev 12 clearly shows that it is church age saints that cast him down. They have a testimony, they have the blood of Jesus, they have to be church age saints. These verses cannot apply to Israel, they apply to the church, the offspring of Israel. Thus Satan in this current age will be cast down, when the church's testimony has reached completion.

That would again point to the time Jesus said he looked and saw Satan as lightning fall from heaven

I believe this was prophetic, because when Jesus sent out the disciples, this was the first preaching in the name of Jesus that has ever occurred on earth. Jesus prophetically knew the result of this continued preaching in His name would be the fall of Satan as per Rev 12, the victorious church!

[John146]

I always meditate on these things a lot, and try to keep all scriptures in mind when coming to a conclusion, this is what I came up with:

In ages past Satan rebelled and was cast out of heaven. He was cast to earth, but not right onto the earth as a living being, satan was cast to the spiritual "heavenlies" that surround earth. In this region he has access to both earth and heaven, and yet not full access to either. Thus he can appear and influence on earth, and can also accuse us directly before God in heaven.

Scripture is clear that during the current church age, our fight is against the powers and principalities in this heavenly region where Satan currently is. There are more than one NT scripture that indicate that this is where our enemy currently is.

Looking at Rev 12, it is by the word of our testimony that the saints overcome Satan. I believe this is when the gospel has been succesfully preached to all nations that Satan will lose his authority in this heavenly region. He is literally cast to earth for a short period of wrath on earth. (Rev 12)

At the second coming Satan is cast down to the bottomless pit for 1000 years. (Rev 19/20)

At the end of the millenium Satan is thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev 20)

Jesus himself seems to contradict this when he sends out the disciples to preach in His name, and Jesus sees Satan falling at that time. I believe Jesus was seeing the future fall of Satan prophetically and was relating this to the disciples being the first preachers in his name, which would ultimately result in Satan's fall.

So, if Jesus was seeing the future fall of Satan in Luke 10:17 would you try to apply the following only to the future as well?

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Does "now" mean "some time in the distant future" in this passage or was Jesus talking about something that was happening or about to happen at that time? That would be quite a stretch if you tried to claim that it means "some time in the distant future". Notice that the judgment of the world and the prince of this world being cast out is related to the timing of His death. It should be clear then that He was saying His death would bring about the judgment of the world and the casting out of the prince of this world. So, the question is, in what sense was the world judged by His death and where was the prince of this world cast out of at that time?

When He said "now is the judgment of this world" He was referring to the same thing spoken of in the following verses:

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. 40And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? 41Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

John 16:7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

So, His death brough about judgment upon this world because it brought condemnation upon those who rejected Him. It cast out the prince of this world because His death sealed Satan's fate. So, where was Satan cast out of? The text from John 12 doesn't say specifically, but we know it isn't saying he would be cast out of this world. So, where else would he be cast out of except heaven? It seems clear to me that Jesus was speaking of Satan being cast out of heaven, as is described in Rev 12. How could Satan be allowed to accuse believers in heaven any longer when Jesus had defeated him on the cross and was going to ascend to heaven as our Advocate at the right hand of the Father? I see it as a case of there being no room for the both of them in heaven. Satan had to go so that the Son of man, Jesus, could take His rightful place at the right hand of the Father. No longer would the Father hear Satan's accusations and instead now hears Jesus advocating on our behalf.

[Beckrl]

I don't believe that the verse about us being in heavenly places is a reference to the reconciliation of Gentiles and Jews. I believe it is a reference to our current spitiual standing of onenes with God.

In my understanding that is what 'reconciliation of Gentiles and Jews' unto one new man, a spiritual oneness in God.

I believe a careful reading of Rev 12 clearly shows that it is church age saints that cast him down. They have a testimony, they have the blood of Jesus, they have to be church age saints. These verses cannot apply to Israel, they apply to the church, the offspring of Israel. Thus Satan in this current age will be cast down, when the church's testimony has reached completion.

Reading carefully, It would seem you missed the indication of those would have the blood of the Lamb. That is in reference to the old covenant age, that is the reason Satan was bringing accusations before God 'day and night' for he saw their sins that wasn't washed away until onces a year atonement by a lamb offering, but what Satan falled to see is that it was by faith a schoolmaster until their Savior came as The Lamb of God. Those hero's are listed in Hebrews because of their faith in the Lamb of God and their testimony which they held even through death. Nowhere in the passages of Revelation 12 do we fine because of the 'blood of Jesus' in reference to following Jesus. Read Hebrews 11 and verses 13-16, 28, 39,40 these would give a account of them.

[DurbanDude]

In my understanding that is what 'reconciliation of Gentiles and Jews' unto one new man, a spiritual oneness in God.

OK but our emphasis here seems to be different. I am happy to just disagree here.

Reading carefully, It would seem you missed the indication of those would have the blood of the Lamb. That is in reference to the old covenant age, that is the reason Satan was bringing accusations before God 'day and night' for he saw their sins that wasn't washed away until onces a year atonement by a lamb offering, but what Satan falled to see is that it was by faith a schoolmaster until their Savior came as The Lamb of God. Those hero's are listed in Hebrews because of their faith in the Lamb of God and their testimony which they held even through death. Nowhere in the passages of Revelation 12 do we fine because of the 'blood of Jesus' in reference to following Jesus. Read Hebrews 11 and verses 13-16, 28, 39,40 these would give a account of them

You seem to be saying that the blood of Jesus is more applicable to OT saints than NT saints. Although your interpretation could be possible, in the light of the many more verses in the NT which show that NT saints have the blood of Christ and a testimony, and also the verses that clearly indicate that Satan is in heavenly places even during this age, I would say that the view that those saints of Rev 12 are referring to NT saints has more backing.

[DurbanDude]

So, if Jesus was seeing the future fall of Satan in Luke 10:17 would you try to apply the following only to the future as well?

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33This he said, signifying what death he should die.Does "now" mean "some time in the distant future" in this passage or was Jesus talking about something that was happening or about to happen at that time? That would be quite a stretch if you tried to claim that it means "some time in the distant future". Notice that the judgment of the world and the prince of this world being cast out is related to the timing of His death. It should be clear then that He was saying His death would bring about the judgment of the world and the casting out of the prince of this world. So, the question is, in what sense was the world judged by His death and where was the prince of this world cast out of at that time?

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Good point!

However he is using the word "now" to refer to events that are to happen in the future at his crucifixion , therefore in both cases the event that Jesus is saying is happening "now" is actually prophetic of future events in both our views.

I believe Jesus is referring to the ongoing overcoming of Satan and judging of this world that would be ushered in by the crucifixion and the church, leading up to Satan's fall.

Other views may contradict verses already given in this thread that clearly refer to Satan in the air, and our enemy being in heavenly places during this current age. What would the reason be for the bible to define our enemy as being in the heavenlies in this current age if he is in fact not there?

[yaza]

satan did not fall until after the seventh day remember god said it was very good

[Beckrl]

You seem to be saying that the blood of Jesus is more applicable to OT saints than NT saints. Although your interpretation could be possible, in the light of the many more verses in the NT which show that NT saints have the blood of Christ and a testimony, and also the verses that clearly indicate that Satan is in heavenly places even during this age, I would say that the view that those saints of Rev 12 are referring to NT saints has more backing.

What I'm saying is that you do not fine it written as the 'blood of Jesus' but rather the 'blood of the Lamb' while this is an reference to Jesus through him fulfilling the Lamb of God on the cross, this isn't the application, but rather those of faith looking foreward of the promise.

Hebrews 11:13
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city

Again please notice the 'woman' as the nation of Israel of the OT which delivered a child, Jesus. And it states at this time a war in heaven and Satan was then casted out and down to earth, Satan goes after the 'woman' but God had perpared her a place after this Satan then turns after her seed(church) if you will. With in the church 'seed' here is where we fine those are martyred for the 'blood of Jesus'.

[RogerW]

Good point!

However he is using the word "now" to refer to events that are to happen in the future at his crucifixion , therefore in both cases the event that Jesus is saying is happening "now" is actually prophetic of future events in both our views.


I believe Jesus is referring to the ongoing overcoming of Satan and judging of this world that would be ushered in by the crucifixion and the church, leading up to Satan's fall.

Other views may contradict verses already given in this thread that clearly refer to Satan in the air, and our enemy being in heavenly places during this current age. What would the reason be for the bible to define our enemy as being in the heavenlies in this current age if he is in fact not there?

I don't know DD..."now" seems to imply the life, death and resurrection of Christ. It is because Messiah has NOW (then) come we are confident from that moment in history Satan is a defeated foe. Christ, at His coming, ushered in the kingdom of God, and thereby was able to defeat the devil by His Spirit.

Mt*12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

The devil was defeated when Christ was made manifest at His coming.

1Jo*3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

[DurbanDude]

I don't know DD..."now" seems to imply the life, death and resurrection of Christ. It is because Messiah has NOW (then) come we are confident from that moment in history Satan is a defeated foe. Christ, at His coming, ushered in the kingdom of God, and thereby was able to defeat the devil by His Spirit.

Mt*12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

The devil was defeated when Christ was made manifest at His coming.

1Jo*3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Very true! Christ and the church are current overcomers of Satan, in this sense his defeat is already manifested, for he has no power over us when we stand firm in Christ. It is this confidence in the defeat of Satan that Jesus was referring to when he stated the defeat of Satan, and I agree that was manifested at that time. But as per his status and locality, the bible is clear that he is currently able to accuse us from his current place of being "in the air" or "in the heavenlies". He will lose this place when all nations are preached to, which will usher in the short tribulation period of wrath when Satan is cast to earth.

[DurbanDude]

What I'm saying is that you do not fine it written as the 'blood of Jesus' but rather the 'blood of the Lamb' while this is an reference to Jesus through him fulfilling the Lamb of God on the cross, this isn't the application, but rather those of faith looking foreward of the promise.

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You seem to be playing with semantics here. If Jesus is the lamb, then "blood of the lamb" is simply referring to the blood of Jesus.

I do not see anything in the context that would infer an application to those looking forward to the promise over those who already have the promise. The verse appears to me to apply to those who have the promise. Anyway, we are going in circles here, I am happy to disagree.

Again please notice the 'woman' as the nation of Israel of the OT which delivered a child, Jesus. And it states at this time a war in heaven and Satan was then casted out and down to earth,'

Ok I see now where you are misunderstanding Rev 12. After the ascension, Israel went through a fleeing stage, this is the great dispersion. Then Israel went through a resettling stage in the wilderness, this is referring to 1948 onwards. Then Israel is to experience a 3.5 year period of caring by God, Israel has not yet experienced any 3.5 year period of protection ever since the ascension of Christ.

You are making the mistake of assuming that the war occurs at the moment of the ascension of Jesus, yet verses 1 to 6 are covering a period thousands of years long, and then the war is only mentioned. This war and subsequent period of wrath starts (according to verse 14) just before the 3.5 years of protection of Israel. History shows that we have not yet experienced this 3.5 years of protection of Israel, the fall of satan and short period of 3.5 years of wrath on the saints and protection of Israel is still to come.

Satan goes after the 'woman' but God had perpared her a place after this Satan then turns after her seed(church) if you will. With in the church 'seed' here is where we fine those are martyred for the 'blood of Jesus

I do not see this prepared place for Israel in history, this is referring to the church age re-establishment of Israel who will go through a period of peace in future.

[John146]

Good point!

However he is using the word "now" to refer to events that are to happen in the future at his crucifixion , therefore in both cases the event that Jesus is saying is happening "now" is actually prophetic of future events in both our views.

But He clearly was not referring to the distant future since He was relating Satan's casting out and the judgment of the world to the time of His death.

I believe Jesus is referring to the ongoing overcoming of Satan and judging of this world that would be ushered in by the crucifixion and the church, leading up to Satan's fall.

So, you see it as Jesus saying Satan was about to begin to be cast out but not actually be cast out? Which would mean he's been in the process of being cast out the last 2,000 years or so? I disagree because, again, I believe He is saying that His death is what would bring about Satan's casting out and the judgment of the world (condemnation to those who rejected Him).

Other views may contradict verses already given in this thread that clearly refer to Satan in the air, and our enemy being in heavenly places during this current age. What would the reason be for the bible to define our enemy as being in the heavenlies in this current age if he is in fact not there?

Where does scripture teach that he would be in heaven even until the end of this age? For him to be "in the air" and in "high places" does not mean he is in heaven. There is more to the spiritual realm than just heaven. The spiritual realm is all around us as well.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Notice that they rule the darkness of this world. They don't rule in heaven. The context here would indicate that the "high places" from which they rule must have something to do with the darkness of this world and not anything to do with heaven.

[Beckrl]

You seem to be playing with semantics here. If Jesus is the lamb, then "blood of the lamb" is simply referring to the blood of Jesus.

I do not see anything in the context that would infer an application to those looking forward to the promise over those who already have the promise. The verse appears to me to apply to those who have the promise. Anyway, we are going in circles here, I am happy to disagree.



Ok I see now where you are misunderstanding Rev 12. After the ascension, Israel went through a fleeing stage, this is the great dispersion. Then Israel went through a resettling stage in the wilderness, this is referring to 1948 onwards. Then Israel is to experience a 3.5 year period of caring by God, Israel has not yet experienced any 3.5 year period of protection ever since the ascension of Christ.

I disagree, assumptions.

I do not see this prepared place for Israel in history, this is referring to the church age re-establishment of Israel who will go through a period of peace in future.

No, The woman is the nation of Israel. It's pretty simple Satan goes after the nation of Israel after Christ ascension to heaven and him being casted out down to earth. In which a flood [army] come after her [Israel], but the earth [four corners] helps the woman. Can you not see the relationship between this imagery and what history gives us of the Jews Wars that of the elect fleeing the city just before it's destruction and they fleeing to the four corners of the earth?