I live here!
What is the purpose of the 1000 years? Since 1000 years is very obviously speaking of time, will this amount of time exist after Christ comes again? When Christ comes again, doesn't Scripture indicate we enter into another age, or eternity? If the age to come begins at the end of this age, how can there be another 1000 years of literal time?
Out of the Box
I see the martyred like the two witnesses resurrected before Christ returns and the first resurrection (special reward). Yes he sees the souls but also they "live" which would mean they have been resssurected. Why do we see some "live" again and other believers not until 1000 years later? This is another reason why the rest of the dead are believers as they DO LIVE AGAIN.Originally Posted by Raybob
To live after death would mean to have been resurrected.
1co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Another reason that these in verse 4 have been resurrected as they have been judged already.They were "judged", or more properly, "judgment was given unto them," the day they gave their lives to the Lord.
A couple of points. When we see a colon the phrase after speaks of the phrase before. So John first makes a statement then defines who is on these thrones. The martyred are already on thrones, resurrected and judged. Again the first part does not include all believers because 1. they have not all been resurrected, judged 2. Again the second part makes no mention of this group.John saw the thrones and He saw the souls that sat on them AND he saw those that were martyred, included with those souls reigning with Christ. You missed the word "AND".
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(Rev 20:4)
Note also these on thrones are those which overcame as Christ overcame.....by death. This would also include the 12 apostles who also died by martyred death. So if you say that they are different then the thrones which John speaks are then of the apostles.
Mt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Re 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Group 1 - martyred - live and reign - resurrected, judged before Christ returnsI don't know what you mean "two groups in heaven". Where did you read that bit about priests?
Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Group 2 - rest of the dead - preists, reign - resurrected, judged after Christ returns
Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
So there we have two groups reigning during this 1000 years with some living and reigning and others are preists and reign. So who are the priests as they are different from those in verse 4. Only one solution, they are the rest of the dead (believers).
Out of the Box
Well the only problem is the status of the earth, sun and moon. We see this happening PRIOR to Christ 's return.
Re 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Re 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Re 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
And also we see the pit filled with satan and his angels and visted before Christ returns and released as well.
Re 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Re 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
So then to make the 1000 years literal we would have to expect all these events, including those previously mentioned in the OP to happen twice! This should be a clue that the 1000 years are not literal.
Coffee Break
In your proposed view, what is it that causes the 1000 yrs to begin?
I guess the thousand years would begin when Christ returned to defeat the beast. I guess my proposal that Christ hadn't returned yet is shot down.
Where do the rest of the dead fit into this view?
John talks about a first resurrection. Typically this is seen as the resurrection of the righteous dead. In my new proposal (which is just a proposal) the first resurrection is a resurrection of a select few, the Apostles and perhaps a few others, who will rule over Israel during the Millennial period.
When are they raised?
The rest of the dead, which would include both the righteous and the wicked together, are raised after the Millennial period is over.
What about the Rapture?
[I added this question myself, since it seems like a logical implication of your question about the raising of the rest of the dead.]
I guess, in this proposal, the Rapture and the second resurrection would be the same event.
Now if I can just understand where you're coming from...
Well, I'm attempting to participate in a bit of lateral thinking with the understanding that this proposal might be DOA but also might bear fruit. You never know where something like this might lead. If everyone shoots it down, it won't hurt my feelings.
I live here!
I noticed you bolded verse 20 and 23 of Isaiah 24. I can somewhat see your point in regards to verse 20, but as far as verse 23, I would suspect that the moon and sun is not to be understood literally. We would probably have to search and see how the Bible sometimes defines those two, as in what they represent.
As far as verse 22 is concerned, care to tell us what this is in relation to? I ask this of all others as well. And what about the context of this passage itself. Where would one place this in time, as in the order of events overall? Has this passage already been fulfilled, or is it still yet future? If it's still yet future, why then could not verse 22 apply to the 1000 years?
Isaiah 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
When someone can show what this verse does apply to, and if it isn't the 1000 yrs, then I can take it off my list and conclude it's unrelated. But until then, I'm not so certain that it is unrelated.
I live here!
BroRog, this is what I like most about you. You're not afraid to test theories, to see if they even stand up. Many folks won't do that for nothing. They're already convinced their views are correct, and nothing is ever going to change their minds. The truth is, I do pretty much the same as you are doing here. I in no way believe myself to be correct allIn your proposed view, what is it that causes the 1000 yrs to begin?
I guess the thousand years would begin when Christ returned to defeat the beast. I guess my proposal that Christ hadn't returned yet is shot down.
Where do the rest of the dead fit into this view?
John talks about a first resurrection. Typically this is seen as the resurrection of the righteous dead. In my new proposal (which is just a proposal) the first resurrection is a resurrection of a select few, the Apostles and perhaps a few others, who will rule over Israel during the Millennial period.
When are they raised?
The rest of the dead, which would include both the righteous and the wicked together, are raised after the Millennial period is over.
What about the Rapture?
[I added this question myself, since it seems like a logical implication of your question about the raising of the rest of the dead.]
I guess, in this proposal, the Rapture and the second resurrection would be the same event.
Now if I can just understand where you're coming from...
Well, I'm attempting to participate in a bit of lateral thinking with the understanding that this proposal might be DOA but also might bear fruit. You never know where something like this might lead. If everyone shoots it down, it won't hurt my feelings.
the time. Sure, I would like to think I'm correct all the time, but realistically, if I thought I were, I would know something is more wrong with me than I had thought. Why aren't we discussing these things as a team, instead of everyone thinking they're always right, and no matter what someone else comes up with, they're still right.
As far as your proposal, I'd have to study it a bit further before I could really comment. Mainly because I've never considered it like that before. If what you proposed were something I was at least familiar with, then that might be different. But I can already see a few things
that might not work per your proposal. Maybe that's because I haven't fully grasped what you're getting at yet?
I live here!
RW, if it were not for the OT, I'm not even certain if I could remain premil. But since there are too many prophecies in the OT that can't possibly fit anywhere but after Christ returns, then what is someone such as I to conclude? Apparently the 1000 yrs will be for the fulfilling of these OT prophecies in question. If we ignore the OT, then we're going to get much of the NT wrong. On the OTOH, if we ignore the NT, then we're going to get much of the OT wrong. We have to use both together, in order to form the bigger picture. It seems simple to me. By Christ coming the first time, He fulfilled all these prophecies, except some of them are yet to be realized literally. Right now we're basically having faith in promises. Right now the kingdom is spiritual. When Christ returns, the kingdom will be literal, as in one can touch, feel it, see it.
guest
Israel was promised a kingdom here on the earth with Christ at its head. This is the millenial kingdom of Zech 14. God will set a theocratic kingdom on the earth with Christ on the throne of David in Jerusalem. After one thousand years of perfect government on the earth men will be led to rebel against God one final time. Satan being loosed from the pit and deceiving men one last time. The kingdom of Christ on the earth will be a Jewish kingdom with the other nations coming to Jerusalem once a year to worship or they receive no rain. Zech 14 again.
The church has no purpose in the tribulation period and the witnessing will be primariarly Jewish evangelists stirred by God to declare His word to the folks enduring this time. A ministry to which God appointed the nation of Israel in the first place. The church returns with Christ at the close of the tribulation as Christ comes with His saints.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I live here!
I have a different theory all together. They live again so that they can die again..IOW the 2nd death. They would have already died one death. In order to die a 2nd death, one must first be alive again. This would make them non believers. I'm probably the only person in the world that sees it like this, so I know it's not going to be a popular view, but this is how I've understood it for years, nonetheless.
I live here!
What role does the church play in this? Where are they during this 1000
yrs?
Even so, come, Lord Jesus
My understanding is that most premils (and amils for that matter) believe the rest of the dead are resurrected not only after the thousand years but after Satan's little season as well. The reason for that is because Rev 20:11-15 shows the dead being raised and brought before the throne for judgment. How could that happen before Satan's little season was over?
Sorry, but you're not making any sense to me here. I don't get the feeling that you've given this much thought before. If that's not true, please don't take offense at my having said that. It's just the way you're coming across here.I mean, apparently they're not dead after the 1000 yrs has ended, yet they're also not those of the 1st resurrection. During the 1000 yrs, the rest of the dead do not live again, that's the point. satan's little season is after the 1000 yrs has expired. I would think that the rest of the dead not living again, that this would no longer apply after the 1000 yrs has ended. Because it is only during the 1000 yrs that they live not again, and not after.
I wouldn't put them in that category but I'm not going into that here. I'd like to know what you think will happen to the rest of the dead during Satan's little season if they were resurrected when Satan's little season begins?As far as SDAs, I don't know much about them. Never have researched what they believe or don't believe. I've researched JWs to a certain extent tho(because I used to work with a cpl of them), but not SDAs. So if they believe the same, then I guess it's just an unfortunate coincidence. I sure wouldn't want to be one of them, lol. I least know enough to know they're sort of cultish I guess. I put them in the same class as Mormons and JWs. I know very little about the Mormons, but a little about the JWs, because I've researched them a bit.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus
Where does it say that? It doesn't. It only says they would not live again until the thousand years was finished but it does not say they would be resurrected immediately when the thousand years was finished. It's only saying that they would not be resurrected until the thousand years was finished first. That does not mean they could not also be resurrected after Satan's little season.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus
Please show me where you found this.
Another thing you have to consider is that both Daniel 12:2 and John 5:28-29 teach that all the dead will be raised at the same time. Even if you don't think the saved and lost are all raised at the same time, at the very least those passages show that all the lost will be raised at the same time. Yet you have some lost people being raised right when the thousand years ends and then others being raised after Satan's little season. How do you reconcile that with what it teaches in Daniel 12:2 and John 5:28-29?The truth is, the typical premil interpretation is beginning to make less sense to me. I can see how they make the connection with Rev 20:11, in regards to a resurrection, since I also make that connection. But this still doesn't explain who all these folks are in the 4 corners of the earth, the ones that come against the beloved city.
I live here!
Actually, like everyone else, I make the connection with Rev 20:11-15, that this is a resurrection of the dead. Not saying it isn't. And clearly this would take place after satan's little season.
I don't know, can't explain it, it only happened just recently, in this very thread, where Rev 20:3 and Rev 20:5 just seemed to jump out at me. All of a sudden I'm thinking..aren't the rest of the dead only dead during the 1000 yrs? So, if the 1000 yrs are over, then why are the rest of the dead still dead? So yes, you would be correct about some of it. I haven't thought it all the way thru yet. That's what I've been basically doing, seeing if it holds water, wondering why those verses just seem to jump out at me like that. I guess I like to test theories I'm uncertain about in order to determine if there is any validity to them. And if they turn out to not be valid, I simply discard them. It's like when you get a feeling in your gut about something, but you can't really explain why at the time. In order to learn, sometimes we're going to encounter mistakes. And sometimes, we find they weren't mistakes at all.
guest
We rule and reign with our Saviour in this His Davidic kingdom on the earth.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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