Is there really a 1000 years?

[RogerW]

RW, if it were not for the OT, I'm not even certain if I could remain premil. But since there are too many prophecies in the OT that can't possibly fit anywhere but after Christ returns, then what is someone such as I to conclude? Apparently the 1000 yrs will be for the fulfilling of these OT prophecies in question. If we ignore the OT, then we're going to get much of the NT wrong. On the OTOH, if we ignore the NT, then we're going to get much of the OT wrong. We have to use both together, in order to form the bigger picture. It seems simple to me. By Christ coming the first time, He fulfilled all these prophecies, except some of them are yet to be realized literally. Right now we're basically having faith in promises. Right now the kingdom is spiritual. When Christ returns, the kingdom will be literal, as in one can touch, feel it, see it.

Hi David,

I understand your dilemma! But would there still be a dilemma for you if you could answer the questions I posed? What OT prophecies are there that Messiah, at His coming did not or is not fulfilling from the cross to the end of time? According to my understanding of OT prophecy the only thing that will be fulfilled when Christ comes a second time is the bodily resurrection to everlasting life or everlasting death, the wrath of God being poured upon the world of the ungodly, the Judgment of "the dead"; that is the second death for those who have no part in the first resurrection, and the creation of a new heaven and earth where believers will dwell with Christ (not for 1000 years) FOREVER! Messiah fulfills all prophecy at His coming! This is not at His coming again, but at His coming! This is what all the OT prophets looked for and spoke of. There are no OT prophecies that speak of Christ establishing a literal kingdom upon earth while time still exists. The only kingdom on earth in time is the militant church! The triumphant Church will not come to this earth, but to the new earth when it comes down from God out of heaven as the holy city, new Jerusalem, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband!

When Christ comes again there will not be another 1000 years of time. Time will be no more because eternity begins when He comes again in glory. That is when His Spiritual Kingdom will be complete, and then will be a literal or physical Kingdom on the new re-created earth.

The 1000 years represents TIME! But God dwells outside of time in eternity. That is why we read to God a thousand years is like a day and a day like a thousand years. And also that a thousand years in the sight of God are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. Time was made for man, but when Christ comes again time will be no more! You cannot have time no more, and another 1000 years of time! Time exists in this age, but in the age to come is eternity.

[RogerW]

I have a different theory all together. They live again so that they can die again..IOW the 2nd death. They would have already died one death. In order to die a 2nd death, one must first be alive again. This would make them non believers. I'm probably the only person in the world that sees it like this, so I know it's not going to be a popular view, but this is how I've understood it for years, nonetheless.

No David, you are not the only person who sees it this way! Indeed you cannot die again unless you have already died once. That is why the passage tells us it is the "rest of the dead" who live again. Those who have part in the first resurrection are not among the dead! Therefore they will not be "the dead" who stand before the Judgment Throne as books are opened! You do not find Scripture saying those who are of the first resurrection (born again of the Spirit) referred to as "the dead"! They are the dead "in Christ"! A very important distinction for it means that even though they die physically when they are in Christ, they never die at all! Therefore they are not "the rest of the dead" who recover physical life to receive the second death that is the lake of fire.

[RogerW]

Here's the point I'm trying to make. if the rest of the dead live not again during the 1000 years, then it only stands to reason, once the 1000 yrs has ended, this would no longer apply. Why? Because if they're still dead, then that means we must still be in the 1000 yrs, because it is only during the 1000 yrs that they do not live.. The same with satan. If satan is still bound, we would still be in the 1000 yrs. If satan is loosed, we're no longer in the 1000 yrs. So why wouldn't the same apply to the rest of the dead?

David, NOW they are still dead, and Satan is still bound...therefore does it not stand to reason that we are NOW in the 1000 yrs? And at the end of the 1000 yrs (time), Satan will be loosed and they (the dead) will be raised to life for the Judgment...yes???

[RogerW]

Here's the point I'm trying to make. if the rest of the dead live not again during the 1000 years, then it only stands to reason, once the 1000 yrs has ended, this would no longer apply. Why? Because if they're still dead, then that means we must still be in the 1000 yrs, because it is only during the 1000 yrs that they do not live.. The same with satan. If satan is still bound, we would still be in the 1000 yrs. If satan is loosed, we're no longer in the 1000 yrs. So why wouldn't the same apply to the rest of the dead?

Re*20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Re*20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The first resurrection is living and reigning with Christ a thousand years! It is NOT the rest of the dead living again, because they are not resurrected to live and reign, but to Judgment and the second death.

Re*20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

How could the first resurrection be to those who are blessed and holy if they are raised to life to die the second death? The blessed and holy are those living and reigning with Christ a thousand years, so how can it be the rest of the dead, who are raised after the thousand years to die again?

Those who have part in the first resurrection live and reign with Christ a thousand years...not after the thousand years! They are blessed and holy because they have part in the first resurrection and they are living and reigning with Christ a thousand years (in time). In order for the first resurrection to be after the thousand years is finished, then wouldn't we need another thousand years for them to live and reign with Christ? I don't find two separate thousand year periods...do you?

[BroRog]

BroRog, this is what I like most about you. You're not afraid to test theories, to see if they even stand up. Many folks won't do that for nothing. They're already convinced their views are correct, and nothing is ever going to change their minds. The truth is, I do pretty much the same as you are doing here. I in no way believe myself to be correct all
the time. Sure, I would like to think I'm correct all the time, but realistically, if I thought I were, I would know something is more wrong with me than I had thought. Why aren't we discussing these things as a team, instead of everyone thinking they're always right, and no matter what someone else comes up with, they're still right.

As far as your proposal, I'd have to study it a bit further before I could really comment. Mainly because I've never considered it like that before. If what you proposed were something I was at least familiar with, then that might be different. But I can already see a few things
that might not work per your proposal. Maybe that's because I haven't fully grasped what you're getting at yet?

Thanks for the encouragement. I too, wish we could work as a team. I like that idea. I have nothing further to add to the proposal, but I will keep it in the back of my mind and let it perculate a bit.

[divaD]

The first resurrection is living and reigning with Christ a thousand years! It is NOT the rest of the dead living again, because they are not resurrected to live and reign, but to Judgment and the second death.

RW I agree. I wasn't implying otherwise I don't think.

How could the first resurrection be to those who are blessed and holy if they are raised to life to die the second death? The blessed and holy are those living and reigning with Christ a thousand years, so how can it be the rest of the dead, who are raised after the thousand years to die again?

Again, I'm not certain if you're asking me, or if you're asking in general. But just in case it's me you're asking, I would say that I hope I wasn't implying any of that. Because I agree with your point. I see the rest of the dead as the wicked dead also.

In order for the first resurrection to be after the thousand years is finished

Personally I would think the first resurrection happens at the beginning of the 1000 yrs, and not at the end of it. So we're probably in agreement there. We're just not seeing the 1000 yrs in the same time zone. Ironically tho, since I believe the 1st resurrection to be physical, and I'm thinking you don't, we both agree the first resurrection happens at the beginning of the 1000 yrs.


Getting back to the other point I was making...

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The rest of the dead are only dead during the 1000 yrs. So when the 1000 yrs ends, technically the rest of the dead should no longer be dead at that point in time. So how can they still be dead when the 1000 yrs are expired? It says nothing about them still being dead once the 1000 yrs expires. It says they're only dead during the 1000 yrs. If someone were in jail until 5 days were fulfilled, would they still be in jail on day 6? Apply that same concept to the rest of the dead. If they're only dead during the 1000 yrs, should they technically still be dead 1 minute after the 1000 yrs had expired?

[RogerW]

Getting back to the other point I was making...

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The rest of the dead are only dead during the 1000 yrs. So when the 1000 yrs ends, technically the rest of the dead should no longer be dead at that point in time. So how can they still be dead when the 1000 yrs are expired? It says nothing about them still being dead once the 1000 yrs expires. It says they're only dead during the 1000 yrs. If someone were in jail until 5 days were fulfilled, would they still be in jail on day 6? Apply that same concept to the rest of the dead. If they're only dead during the 1000 yrs, should they technically still be dead 1 minute after the 1000 yrs had expired?

The rest of the dead are raised bodily to stand in the Judgment. They are dead throughout time (1000 yrs), then raised to die again (second death). So dead during the thousand years...made bodily alive for Judgment...cast into the lake of fire (second death)...so never having part in the first resurrection (Christ's resurrection; born again), though they physically lived, they were never resurrected to live and reign with Christ either in time or eternity. So technically one could argue "the dead" are always "the dead" and are never truly alive apart from Christ, even though they physically live in bodies of corruption and death, before they physically die.

[Diggindeeper]

Ironically tho, since I believe the 1st resurrection to be physical, and I'm thinking you don't, we both agree the first resurrection happens at the beginning of the 1000 yrs.

John 11:23-26
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. (Speaking of Lazarus.)

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: But...he didn't stop here. Look what he said in the next breath! (Please read on!)

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Now, someone please tell me...what are we to do with the words Jesus spoke here? He WAS talking about the resurrection of the dead! Wasn't he? And he said, WHOSOEVER LIVETH AND BELIEVETH IN ME shall never die!

If we can ever get it, that the 'time' spoken of as "1,000 years" is NOT a literal, 1,000 year period, but it is NOW. It is THIS TIME, between the cross and the second coming...then, we can understand.

Did Christ lie, when he said,"whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die"?

These old bodies may be laying rotted in a grave, but, well, what are we to do with the words of Christ, above in red?
And, what are we to do with John 3:16? EVERLASTING LIFE. Is our life in that grave, until a future resurrection day?

If we focus on a few verses, (like over in Revelation) without considering the rest, the whole of scripture, we only go around in circles. What about the things Jesus said, from his own mouth?

[Firstfruits]

Here's a question for all, other that the following scriptures in the NT are there any OT scriptures or other NT scriptures that speak of the millenium?

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Thank you!

Firstfruits

[divaD]

Here's a question for all, other that the following scriptures in the NT are there any OT scriptures or other NT scriptures that speak of the millenium?

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Thank you!

Firstfruits

FF, I addressed this very thing in post #60

What are your thoughts on that?

[RogerW]

Here's a question for all, other that the following scriptures in the NT are there any OT scriptures or other NT scriptures that speak of the millenium?

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Thank you!

Firstfruits

Actually yes firstfruits, a thousand is mentioned in the OT Scripture as connected to time. Does God keep covenant and mercy to those who love Him and keep His commandments only to a thousand generations? Or is God using a thousand to show He is faithful throughout time (all eternity) to those who love Him and keep His commandments?

De*7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

Is the Word which He commanded only to a thousand generations? Or is thousand used to show the Word which He commanded is to every generation throughout time (or all eternity)?

Ps*105:8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.

Do only the cattle on a thousand hills belong to the LORD? Doesn't He say "every beast" belongs to Him? So why would we limit "thousand hills" to anything less than every hill?

Ps*50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.

Are we to assume a thousand years in the sight of God are as yesterday when it is past? Or is God using a thousand years to express He lives outside of time, in eternity? God is here measuring timelessness (eternity) as a thousand years.

Ps*90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

[divaD]

John 11:23-26
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. (Speaking of Lazarus.)

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: But...he didn't stop here. Look what he said in the next breath! (Please read on!)

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Now, someone please tell me...what are we to do with the words Jesus spoke here? He WAS talking about the resurrection of the dead! Wasn't he? And he said, WHOSOEVER LIVETH AND BELIEVETH IN ME shall never die!

If we can ever get it, that the 'time' spoken of as "1,000 years" is NOT a literal, 1,000 year period, but it is NOW. It is THIS TIME, between the cross and the second coming...then, we can understand.

Did Christ lie, when he said,"whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die"?

These old bodies may be laying rotted in a grave, but, well, what are we to do with the words of Christ, above in red?
And, what are we to do with John 3:16? EVERLASTING LIFE. Is our life in that grave, until a future resurrection day?

If we focus on a few verses, (like over in Revelation) without considering the rest, the whole of scripture, we only go around in circles. What about the things Jesus said, from his own mouth?

Hi Diggindeeper. I'm pretty certain I understand those passages like you do. But what if one doesn't believe in OSAS like I don't? How do those then keep their spiritual resurrection, if they don't even keep their salvation? Something else to keep in mind, aren't those in Rev 20:4 already physically dead at that point? And these passages you are supplying, aren't these still physically alive?

[divaD]

Are we to assume a thousand years in the sight of God are as yesterday when it is past? Or is God using a thousand years to express He lives outside of time, in eternity? God is here measuring timelessness (eternity) as a thousand years.

Ps*90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Ps*90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

RW, there is a very interesting concept being taught here, yet no one believes me.

Ps*90:4For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night
2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

If one were to deduce what Ps*90:4 could mean logically, one might say it could mean this.

ONE DAY in thy sight is but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night,

This would also actually be a true statement from our perspective. We might understand it like this.

24 HOURS in OUR sight are but as yesterday when it is past....

This statement would still be true, because when 24 hours are past, that 24 hours is now yesterday in our sight.

This in no way limits God to time. He's simply trying to tell us something here prophetically speaking.

[Firstfruits]

Actually yes firstfruits, a thousand is mentioned in the OT Scripture as connected to time. Does God keep covenant and mercy to those who love Him and keep His commandments only to a thousand generations? Or is God using a thousand to show He is faithful throughout time (all eternity) to those who love Him and keep His commandments?

De*7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

Is the Word which He commanded only to a thousand generations? Or is thousand used to show the Word which He commanded is to every generation throughout time (or all eternity)?

Ps*105:8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.

Do only the cattle on a thousand hills belong to the LORD? Doesn't He say "every beast" belongs to Him? So why would we limit "thousand hills" to anything less than every hill?

Ps*50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.

Are we to assume a thousand years in the sight of God are as yesterday when it is past? Or is God using a thousand years to express He lives outside of time, in eternity? God is here measuring timelessness (eternity) as a thousand years.

Ps*90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Would you agree that those scriptures do not relate to the scriptures in revelation?

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Firstfruits

[Diggindeeper]

Hi Diggindeeper. I'm pretty certain I understand those passages like you do. But what if one doesn't believe in OSAS like I don't? How do those then keep their spiritual resurrection, if they don't even keep their salvation? Something else to keep in mind, aren't those in Rev 20:4 already physically dead at that point? And these passages you are supplying, aren't these still physically alive?

I don't adhere to OSAS either. People can, and DO, turn their back and walk away from their once-believing. They love their darkness better than light. They want their life of darkness. To them, its not easy walking in the light and forsaking things they used to do. Or want to do. Also, there are some who are mislead (in my opinion) and believe that no matter what they do (I've actually heard a few say, "I'm only human and God understands that. So, if I do my drugs, immoral lifestyle or whatever...I'll STILL go to heaven!"). But, they could very well bust hell wide open! Because they cling so much to OSAS!

I firmly believe scriptures teach us that it is BELIEVERS who go on to inherit eternal life. Not those who turn away.

DivaD, we all are or will be physically dead at some point in time. Even Christ Jesus WAS physically dead at one point. And I know the story of the rich man and Lazarus tells us that Lazarus was carried by the angels to 'Abraham's bosom'. While the rich man, who had lived very well on earth, most likely ignoring the extremely bad plight of Lazarus, opened his eyes...where? In hell! Yearning for a drop of water to cool his tongue. Wishing someone would go and preach to his relatives still alive.

None of us know when we will get our new bodies. But I do honestly believe the words of Jesus...whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die"!

Are we to disregard this promise from his own mouth? Or what do we do with them? Can we just lay them aside and forget he said this? Or, must his own words be considered along with whatever we discuss about 'the resurrection'? Didn't Martha say to him, "I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day."


Martha believed like most people do today...that someday, who knows when, there will be a coming resurrection day. And that's it. What of us until then? We die, but then...what? All of us face death at some point. Rich, poor, young, old, believers and unbelievers....but, when that time comes, what happens to us then?

I don't see how we can ignore all of this, in this whole debate. We are promised to be raised in an incorruptable. body. Eternal. Everlasting. Never to die again. Never to be sick or crippled or blind or hurting again. EVER. Till then, once we die, do we just wait in a grave in the ground? Or our ashes spread gone, spread about, who knows where?

I just think all this begs answers......