Is there really a 1000 years?

[Firstfruits]

Again, they are given authority, not being judged. Notice that they sit on thrones. That should be all the evidence you need to show that they are being given authority to judge, not being judged.

I agree, the following tells us that the saints shall judge the world, they are given judgment.

1 Cor 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

Firstfruits

[Raybob]

...Isaiah 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited


Hmmm...I wonder what all this means? It's too bad that there's not another testament that might shed some more light on this. But wait..there is another testament, perhaps I should look there. Let's see, I'm pretty certain the book of Revelation is in the NT. Perhaps I can look in there. Well, what do you know, Rev 19 and Rev 20 seem to shed a little more light on that passage...

Kings of the earth and high ones on high being punished sounds to me like what must have happened to those like those in power when Christ came the first time. They had no idea about how there could be a King of the spirit world that would have more influence than all the earthly Kings. That must have drove them crazy and want to burn Christians at the stake. That would be tormenting them. As for being in prision and visited after many days, this is symbolic language. It can't reference to Satan being locked in the abyss for 1000 years, it speaks of high ones and Kings being locked up, not Satan. Revelation 20 doesn't hint of Satan being visited after many days.

Raybob

[Diggindeeper]

DivaD, I will show you where, in the New Testament, your 2 scriptures from Isaiah 24:21-22 were fulfilled. They are ALREADY fulfilled and they were fulfilled before Jesus ascended up into heaven after his resurrection!

First, here is what Isaiah said:

Isaiah 24:21
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited

Now, read this:

Ephesians 4:9-10
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Why exactly did Jesus descend into the lower parts of the earth? (see especially verse #19!)

1 Peter 3:18-22
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

All who had died from Noah forward were there and Jesus showed up at that meeting, and PREACHED TO THEM!

[divaD]

Here's the point I was trying to make earlier. This is how the NT illuminated that passage in the OT. If Isaiah 24:22 is indeed related to Rev 20, guess what we just found out via the NT? the 'after many days' in Isaiah 24:22, we just learned that this is 1000 years. We would have never guessed that in a million yrs from the OT alone. Here's something else that's interesting. That same phrase 'after many days shall they be visited', it is used one other place in the OT as well. Let's see where.


Ezekiel 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

Now where is it that Rev 20 places Gog/Magog? At the end of the 1000 yrs, not at the beginning
like some think. Notice in Ezekiel 38:8..and they shall dwell safely all of them. If we look back in Isaiah, and also over in Jeremiah, in regards to dwelling safely in the land, we notice this is only after the 1000 yrs have started. Why? Because satan and his minion will be locked away in the pit. But when he gets out, he stirs up trouble once again, uniting most of the world to attack the beloved city.

The interesting thing about this is this, if this is all connected, this presents a problem for the premil position. Why? Because according to EZ 39, most of that seems to parallel some of Rev ch 19. If so, then that means there would be no Gog/Magog after the 1000 yrs, since Ez 39 seems to make it clear, Gog/Magog is history at that point. But Rev 20 states there will still be a Gog/Magog after the 1000 yrs.

I also just found the following while researching:



After many days shall they be visited…
(Isaiah 24:22). This indicates a very long period of time to elapse between the time when the ones to be punished were either in the pit (dead) or in prison (the chains of darkness) and the time of the final judgment. We agree with Hailey that these many days are the same as, the symbolic thousand years of Rev. 20:1-6).F12 Amazingly, a number of the time designations in Revelation all have the same meaning, that being, all of the time between the first advent and the second advent of Christ, namely, the whole current dispensation of the grace of God. Note the following references from the Book of Revelation:
http://www.studylight.org/com/bcc/vi...sa&chapter=024

From what I can deduce, this is not a premil, yet this person pretty much makes the same connection as I, at least about it being in regards to the 1000 yrs. So as you can see, it's not just premils who make this connection.

[Diggindeeper]

I see all that, but I don't get the point. Mainly because the 'symbolic thousand years of Rev. 20:1-6 is NOW. Not 1,000 years IN THE FUTURE. That author goes on to say, "Amazingly, a number of the time designations in Revelation all have the same meaning, that being, all of the time between the first advent and the second advent of Christ."

But...there is no 'rapture' that the pre-mills claim, is there?

And the question asked by the OP was, "Is there really a 1000 years?" Now, is there literally a coming 1,000 years? Or is that now, as we have been saying? Are you any closer to your conclusion, divaD?

[divaD]

I see all that, but I don't get the point. Mainly because the 'symbolic thousand years of Rev. 20:1-6 is NOW. Not 1,000 years IN THE FUTURE. That author goes on to say, "Amazingly, a number of the time designations in Revelation all have the same meaning, that being, all of the time between the first advent and the second advent of Christ."

But...there is no 'rapture' that the pre-mills claim, is there?

And the question asked by the OP was, "Is there really a 1000 years?" Now, is there literally a coming 1,000 years? Or is that now, as we have been saying? Are you any closer to your conclusion, divaD?

Diggindeeper, it all hinges upon Ez 38 and 39. Rev 20 puts it after the 1000 yrs. This means that the Ez 38 and 39 events can't also occur before the 1000 yrs, as many premils claim. So the question is, do the events in Ez 38 and 39 occur before Christ comes, or after Christ comes. Once that is determined, then we know how to understand the 1000 yrs. If the events in Ez 38 and 39 occur before Christ returns, then we place the 1000 yrs before Christ's coming. If the events of Ez 38 and 39 occur after Christ returns, then we place the 1000 yrs after Christ's return. This is nothing new to me. I've been knowing this for quite a long time. I just haven't made up my mind where Ez 38 and 39 are supposed to fit. Some actually claim those passages have already been fulfilled ages ago. I simply don't buy that, since no one has ever proven it to be so with Scriptures, or with world history.

I'm pretty convinced that Isaiah 24, Ez 38 and 39, and Rev 19 and 20, that these are all linked to one another. This would mean that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. at the beginning of the 1000 yrs. That only
makes sense to me if the Lord has returned in order to do that. That then would put the events of Ez 38 and 39 after Christ returns, which doesn't make sense to me, since Ez 39 seems to parallel some of Rev 19. Unless of course Ez 39 is not even parallel with Rev 19. But that doesn't seem likely. So, no, no I'm not any closer to my conclusion. lol.
I'm still confused as ever.

[BroRog]

Diggindeeper, it all hinges upon Ez 38 and 39. Rev 20 puts it after the 1000 yrs. This means that the Ez 38 and 39 events can't also occur before the 1000 yrs, as many premils claim. So the question is, do the events in Ez 38 and 39 occur before Christ comes, or after Christ comes. Once that is determined, then we know how to understand the 1000 yrs. If the events in Ez 38 and 39 occur before Christ returns, then we place the 1000 yrs before Christ's coming. If the events of Ez 38 and 39 occur after Christ returns, then we place the 1000 yrs after Christ's return. This is nothing new to me. I've been knowing this for quite a long time. I just haven't made up my mind where Ez 38 and 39 are supposed to fit. Some actually claim those passages have already been fulfilled ages ago. I simply don't buy that, since no one has ever proven it to be so with Scriptures, or with world history.

I'm pretty convinced that Isaiah 24, Ez 38 and 39, and Rev 19 and 20, that these are all linked to one another. This would mean that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. at the beginning of the 1000 yrs. That only
makes sense to me if the Lord has returned in order to do that. That then would put the events of Ez 38 and 39 after Christ returns, which doesn't make sense to me, since Ez 39 seems to parallel some of Rev 19. Unless of course Ez 39 is not even parallel with Rev 19. But that doesn't seem likely. So, no, no I'm not any closer to my conclusion. lol.
I'm still confused as ever.

May I suggest a next step in your process of investigation? Try a comparison between Isaiah 4 and Matthew 17.

[divaD]

To add to my last post..for the sake of argument, let's assume that Isaiah 24 is linked to the 1000 yrs. This then would be the sequence.

Isaiah 24:19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

The question is, what would cause the earth to be removed like a cottage? Could it not be because the Lord is coming to punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth? Would not this occur at His 2nd coming?

Isaiah 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.


If verse 22 is in ref to the the 1000 yrs of Rev 20, then this could only mean that they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, at the beginning of the 1000 yrs. Verse 22 makes it clear that that's not the end of it. It also says after many days shall they be visited. This could explain the ending of the 1000 yrs and satan's little season that follows.

If all of that is correct, there's still Ez 38 and 39 to deal with. Rev 20 places this after the 1000 yrs. Isaiah 24 places the punishing of the hosts on high, etc, at the beginning of the 1000 yrs. So how do we get all this to harmonize? If we place the 1000 yrs before Christ returns, these things don't harmonize. If we place the 1000 yrs after Christ has returned, they still don't harmonize. What does one do at this point? Conclude that either or both Isaiah 24 and Ez 38 and 39 are not even related to Rev 20?

[John146]

Eric, I know you feel you're being reasonable, logical in my case, even helpful, but the thing is, you're not making much sense to me. You're telling me until I understand what I already understand, that I won't undertand at all. Let me prove it to you. You said the NT is used to illuminate the OT, and that I don't undrstand that. So let's see if that's a correct assumption.

Isaiah 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited


Hmmm...I wonder what all this means? It's too bad that there's not another testament that might shed some more light on this. But wait..there is another testament, perhaps I should look there. Let's see, I'm pretty certain the book of Revelation is in the NT. Perhaps I can look in there. Well, what do you know, Rev 19 and Rev 20 seem to shed a little more light on that passage.

I challenge you to do the same as I just did, even tho you claimed I didn't. Isaiah 24:21-22
is the passage in question. Now illuminate it with the NT just like I did, but really didn't.

I must have missed where exactly you illuminated Isaiah 24:21-22 with the NT. Just mentioning Rev 19 and 20 isn't enough. Show me exactly how you think those illuminate Isaiah 24:21-22 and how the NT as a whole illuminates it. And how do you interpret verses 19 and 20?

Isa 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

So, this is speaking of "the host of the high ones that are on high" which presumably are fallen angels, and the kings of the earth being gathered and shut up in the prison, which I would assume refers to the bottomless pit just as Rev 20 does. It seems to me that scripture teaches that they are already in that situation and are reserved for judgment, which is what would occur "after many days".

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Don't these indicate that "the host of the high ones that are on high" are already shut up in prison, symbolically speaking? Which would include Satan. They're already in everlasting chains reserved for judgment. I would think Isaiah 24:21-22 has something to do with these verses. But that's the thing. It's difficult to say. It's a difficult passage. Should we base our doctrine on such difficult passages? I don't believe so. If you think Rev 19 and 20 illuminate that passage, what about the rest of the NT? How does that support your understanding of the passage?

Also, you didn't say anything in response to my having pointed out that Jesus and Paul had nothing whatsoever to say about this supposed future earthly millennial kingdom that you believe in. Why would they have neglected to mention such a significant time period?

[John146]

To add to my last post..for the sake of argument, let's assume that Isaiah 24 is linked to the 1000 yrs. This then would be the sequence.

Isaiah 24:19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

The question is, what would cause the earth to be removed like a cottage? Could it not be because the Lord is coming to punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth? Would not this occur at His 2nd coming?

That passage does remind me of 2 Peter 3:10-12. But if the earth is clean dissolved, as it mentions in that passage, then what mortal could survive that and live on into a supposed earthly millennial kingdom?

What does one do at this point? Conclude that either or both Isaiah 24 and Ez 38 and 39 are not even related to Rev 20?

What one does is try to come to a conclusion based on clearer passages than these, IMO. As far as Ezekiel 38 and 39 are concerned, I don't believe they are related to Rev 20. In those passages Gog is of "the land of Magog" (Eze 38:2) and is "the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal" (Eze 38:2-3, Eze 39:1). But in Rev 20 Gog and Magog symbolically represent "the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth".

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

[divaD]

What one does is try to come to a conclusion based on clearer passages than these, IMO. As far as Ezekiel 38 and 39 are concerned, I don't believe they are related to Rev 20. In those passages Gog is of "the land of Magog" (Eze 38:2) and is "the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal" (Eze 38:2-3, Eze 39:1). But in Rev 20 Gog and Magog symbolically represent "the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth".

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

So would you then conclude these 2 passages are unrelated also?


Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Ezekiel 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.





Revelation 19:17 states this...Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God. That is being addressed to the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven. In Ez 39 we see the same..Ezekiel is told to speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, etc.
And it sure looks like they will have themselves a feast, which btw would be the same thing as a supper I would think. Of course, and I've mentioned this in the past, if the entire earth is ablaze, then I wonder how the fowls of the air can even get close enough to feast on the burning flesh, with all the flames and smoke and all? Not to mention the beasts of the fields. These would be land dwellers. You would think the engulfed earth would also burn them up, but we learn that's not the case at all. They too are told to join in the feast.

[divaD]

May I suggest a next step in your process of investigation? Try a comparison between Isaiah 4 and Matthew 17.

I just looked at both. There seems to be several unrelated contexts in Matt 17. which context should I be comparing Isaiah 4 with. The transfiguration context?

[John146]

So would you then conclude these 2 passages are unrelated also?


Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Ezekiel 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

Yes, I believe those are not related. Ezekiel 38-39 focuses on a battle occurring in Israel. Revelation 19, on the other hand, has to do with the second coming of Christ, which is a global event. He will not just destroy His enemies in Israel, He "shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ ("2 Thess 1:7-8). He will take vengeance on all of His enemies throughout the world when He returns. The entire earth will be burned up on that day (2 Peter 3:10-12).

Revelation 19:17 states this...Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God. That is being addressed to the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven. In Ez 39 we see the same..Ezekiel is told to speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, etc.
And it sure looks like they will have themselves a feast, which btw would be the same thing as a supper I would think. Of course, and I've mentioned this in the past, if the entire earth is ablaze, then I wonder how the fowls of the air can even get close enough to feast on the burning flesh, with all the flames and smoke and all? Not to mention the beasts of the fields. These would be land dwellers. You would think the engulfed earth would also burn them up, but we learn that's not the case at all. They too are told to join in the feast.

That's symbolic language being used there, David. Why do you read symbolic language literally? It's symbolic language being used to illustrate the totality of the destruction that will occur on the day Christ returns. No unbeliever will escape (1 Thess 5:3). As far as unbelievers are concerned the destruction will come upon "all men, both free and bond, both small and great" (Rev 19:18).

[divaD]

Also, you didn't say anything in response to my having pointed out that Jesus and Paul had nothing whatsoever to say about this supposed future earthly millennial kingdom that you believe in. Why would they have neglected to mention such a significant time period?

As far as Paul, I have no clue. But I'm pretty certain that it was Jesus Christ Himself who told John to write everything he saw in a book. So I don't see how you can say Jesus never mentioned it in the NT.

BTW, I like how BroRog put it...in your process of investigation. That fits what I'm doing to a T. And if I discover I've been right all along. That's great. But if I also discover I've been wrong all along, that's great as well. It doesn't matter to me, as long as what I understand is agreeing with the Bible. That's what motivates me..my quest to agree with the Bible.

[BroRog]

I just looked at both. There seems to be several unrelated contexts in Matt 17. which context should I be comparing Isaiah 4 with. The transfiguration context?

Okay, in Matthew 17 we see a cloud that covers the mountain top in which Jesus is glorified and is talking with Moses and Elijah. In Isaiah 4, we see a restored Jerusalem in the last days, in which God covers the entire city in a cloud by day and a fire by night. It's possible that during the Millennial period, Jesus will rule in a transfigured state from Jerusalem.