Hell vs. Lake of Fire

[David Taylor]

But is not the question what is the eternal state entered into for both those who die in Christ and those who die in unbelief? One is everlasting life, the other everlasting death...is it not possible that the doctrine of everlasting torment is being read into the Scriptures? Is it not also true that all the passages that speak of the eternal state must be reconciled so there is no contradiction? How do we reconcile the second death of both body and soul with everlasting suffering?

We know that "everlasting death" is eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire.

We know that "everlasting life" is the eternal unity with God in the Holy New Jerusalem.


That's how we reconcile the two.

[the rookie]

I'm also going to ask that we, on this thread, cool our jets on the annihilation topic - though they form the tributaries of the same river here. Let's tackle one cosmic question at a time, which right now is whether any human beings will be tormented at all after the resurrection from the dead; or whether all will be saved and spared from the torment of the Lake of Fire (universalism). Then we can hit the nature of that torment - either here or in another thread.

[divaD]

My question regarding Rev 20:10 has to do with the phrase "day and night". The way we might reconcile this so there is no contradiction is to ask if day and night exist in eternity? There are verses that indicate there will be no more night there, so how might "day and night" here be reconciled with Rev 21:23 "And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof"?

Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

RW, how would you understand this passage, especially the part in bold?

[RogerW]

We know that "everlasting death" is eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire.

We know that "everlasting life" is the eternal unity with God in the Holy New Jerusalem.

That's how we reconcile the two.

With this I wholeheartedly agree! The only question remaining...are those eternally separated from God in a conscience state? IOW are they really made to partake of the second or complete (body&soul) death, or are they eternally aware and suffering forever? Please don't misunderstand me, I too believe being cast into the eternal flames involves suffering and torment in some manner. What I wonder about is what torment would it be to know death is forever after discovering eternal life is available for all who believe?

[RogerW]

Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

RW, how would you understand this passage, especially the part in bold?

They are serving God in heaven spiritually after physical death while the temporal age (time) still exists. After He comes again in the new earth, as I understand it, believers will serve Him in both body and Spirit in eternity.

[David Taylor]

I'm also going to ask that we, on this thread, cool our jets on the annihilation topic - though they form the tributaries of the same river here. Let's tackle one cosmic question at a time, which right now is whether any human beings will be tormented at all after the resurrection from the dead; or whether all will be saved and spared from the torment of the Lake of Fire (universalism). Then we can hit the nature of that torment - either here or in another thread.

Yes, some human beings will be tormented, at least for some duration, according to the scriptures, at and after Judgment day. Here are a few.

Isa 66:23 "all flesh shall come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched"

Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment"

Luke 16:22 "the rich man also died, and was buried...being in torments...have mercy on me...for I am tormented in this flame. I pray thee..that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. "

II Thess 1:7 "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord"

II Peter 2:9, 3:7 "The Lord knoweth how..to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished..reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

Jude 1:7 "giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. Woe unto them! These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. "

Rev 14:11 "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone..And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night"

Rev 20:10 "them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone...and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Rev 21:8 "the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone"

Rev 22:11 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may..enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. "

[David Taylor]

are those eternally separated from God in a conscience state?

The verses I listed above show us that they are conscious....Now to The Rookie's premise; is anyone tortured at all? We must say yes, the wicked are tortured, tormented, punished, etc. (regardless of the duration).

[divaD]

Yes, some human beings will be tormented, at least for some duration,

What exactly do you mean by 'at least for some duration'? What happens after this duration has expired, however long this duration is?

[divaD]

They are serving God in heaven spiritually after physical death while the temporal age (time) still exists. After He comes again in the new earth, as I understand it, believers will serve Him in both body and Spirit in eternity.

The reason I asked was, why would there be a day and night in heaven? Why would the devil be tormented day and night in eternity? My point being, neither logically fit. So how should day and night be understood then?

[RogerW]

Yes, some human beings will be tormented, at least for some duration, according to the scriptures, at and after Judgment day. Here are a few.

It is while seeking better understanding of these passages that I have come to doubt the doctrine of everlasting suffering.

Isa 66:23 "all flesh shall come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched"

This verse states their worm shall not die, not that they do not die. And their fire or the eternal flames are not quenched, but not that they burn in them forever.

Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment"

Both the fire and the punishment are everlasting, but nowhere everlasting torment. The punishment for sin is the second death (everlasting death of body and soul), not unending torment.

Luke 16:22 "the rich man also died, and was buried...being in torments...have mercy on me...for I am tormented in this flame. I pray thee..that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. "

A parable is figurative language, similtude, fictitious narrative used to convey a moral principle.

II Thess 1:7 "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord"

Their destruction from the presence of the Lord is everlasting, not suffering and torment.

II Peter 2:9, 3:7 "The Lord knoweth how..to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished..reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

The punishment is forever, but the punishment is the second death, not eternal torment.

Jude 1:7 "giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. Woe unto them! These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. "

The fire that consumes them is eternal, and the blackness and darkness that comes with the second death is forever.

Rev 14:11 "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone..And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night"

Is this suffering and torment in this life because they have received the mark of the beast, or is this depicting Judgment Day? I suspect this torment comes from the wrath of God in life, not death.

Rev 20:10 "them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone...and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

While day and night exist the torment is for ever and ever, but does day and night exist in eternity?

Rev 21:8 "the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone"

No doubt the pain ans suffering in the lake of fire is real, but is it forever?

Rev 22:11 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may..enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. "[/QUOTE]

The verses I listed above show us that they are conscious....Now to The Rookie's premise; is anyone tortured at all? We must say yes, the wicked are tortured, tormented, punished, etc. (regardless of the duration).

I wouldn't say regardless of the duration. I want to understand what is biblical truth...the torture, torment, punishment, etc. most certainly will come to all who are cast into the eternal flames. But the fate for all who go there is the second death of both body and soul. That implies no more no less than never to live again!

[David Taylor]

What exactly do you mean by 'at least for some duration'? What happens after this duration has expired, however long this duration is?

The point of Rookies request above, was to temporarily focus on whether or not people would be tormented.... (and save the discussion of the duration of the torment for another discussion point).

That's why I said 'at least for some duration'. We're not discussion the duration or if it will or won't expire right now per Rookie, only if humans will suffer torment or not.

[David Taylor]

The reason I asked was, why would there be a day and night in heaven? Why would the devil be tormented day and night in eternity? My point being, neither logically fit. So how should day and night be understood then?

As a figure of speech denoting completeness.

If I said my wife nags at me on, and on, day and night, for years and years....I'm not being literal; but I am meaning a continued duration without cessation.

The writers using figures of speech like 'day and night' tell us ongoing duration. But we're sidetracking the intent of Rookie's request by examining duration right now. The point is, is anyone tormented at all?

[RogerW]

The reason I asked was, why would there be a day and night in heaven? Why would the devil be tormented day and night in eternity? My point being, neither logically fit. So how should day and night be understood then?

Is it saying that day and night exist in heaven? Or is it simply saying that as long as day and night exist there will be torment for ALL (whether spirit or human beings) who are in unbelief? I do not believe there will be suffering and torment after the Judgment Day! I believe the fire is an all consuming fire that burns up whatever/whoever goes in FOREVER!

[RollTide21]

Sure. Let's start with your interpretation of 1 Tim. 2:6 - "Salvation of all is testified in due time". The passage in every translation reads (with slight variations), "Who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." Which means that even your translation of the verse means something more like "It will be testified in due time that salvation was available to all men", not that salvation will come to all men. Then we can look at your last verse (and many others) and reconcile what the Psalmist said with what Paul said in Romans 9 related to His wrath. Mostly, however, it wearies me to think about going down your list wondering if I can trust how you've presented the verses - since you don't seem to be willing to deal with 1 Tim. 2 as it's written.

My NIV version says:

5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

A bit different. Even so, I agree with you that, regardless of when or how this message is being "witnessed" or "testified" of, there is nothing to indicate that all will benefit from the "ransom".

[divaD]

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


Most take this to mean eternal punishment in hell. But is that what it's even teaching?

Isaiah 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many


Ezekiel 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.


without having to try and explain the connections, I simply believe these are decribing the same events from differing perspectives.



Revelation 14:11...and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. IMO, this is not meaning the fire and brimstone, but is referring to the wrath of God that is being continually poured out..IOW the bowl judgments. I know Rev 14 is one of the most fav Scriptures to use to prove eternal torment, but if read closely, I believe the context proves this position wrong. The context is dealing with what is taking place on earth, not a LOF in eternity. There's definetely a LOF, but this isn't it. It was when I really started reading Rev14 yrs ago, that's when I began changing my pov on things. I used to interpret this passage like most others, until I looked at it closer. This doesn't automatically make me correct, but it is what helped to change my perspective on certain things. I alone came to this conclusion. No outside influences. My overall point being..only IMO, I don't feel Rev 14 can be used to support eternal torment in the LOF.