Hell vs. Lake of Fire

[RollTide21]

You don't believe the fire is literal, but the smoke of their torment is?

Not sure what that has to do with the point. I believe the "burning" and "smoke of their torment" is metaphorical or symbolic. Metaphors still have to make sense and "smoke of their torment" lasting forever wouldn't make sense if the torment wasn't lasting forever.

[RogerW]

I agree but dead in what sense? That's the issue we're discussing. Are you willing to acknowledge that the word death does not only have to do with ceasing to exist and can also relate to being separated from something (in this case being separated from God)?

Spiritual death is more than separation from Christ, although without spiritual life one certainly is separated from Christ. Show me one verse that tells us in death unbelievers have consciousness...and please don't use a fictious narrative or argue the story of Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable. I simply am not aware of any passage of Scripture telling us those who die in unbelief are in any way conscious. How can they have conscious life in any way since the life (spirit) given them by God returns to God when they die? They would not be called "the dead" if they had any conscious existence!

[John146]

Spiritual death is more than separation from Christ, although without spiritual life one certainly is separated from Christ. Show me one verse that tells us in death unbelievers have consciousness...and please don't use a fictious narrative or argue the story of Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable.

Even if Luke 16:19-31 was a parable, is it not scripture that teaches truth? You can't tell me to just disregard that passage just because it may be a parable. What nonsense! Regardless of whether or not it's a parable Jesus clearly portrays a person in a real place, hell, being in torment. But you think you can just brush that aside because you think it's a parable? Is that what you do with all of His parables?

I simply am not aware of any passage of Scripture telling us those who die in unbelief are in any way conscious. How can they have conscious life in any way since the life (spirit) given them by God returns to God when they die?

And when they return to God, what are they doing? Their spirits aren't dead when they return to God are they?

They would not be called "the dead" if they had any conscious existence!

When scripture speaks of "the dead in Christ" in what sense are they dead? Only bodily, right? So, they can be called "the dead" in that sense even though their spirits are not dead.

[RogerW]

You said "The believers separation of our bodies from our spirit is not death!" and I merely pointed out that it does result in death in a bodily sense and it's death in the sense of separation and not in the sense of ceasing to exist. Your comments on this issue give the impression that you think the only meaning for death is annihilation but that is simply not the case.

It matters not one whit that a believers body returns to the dust from whence it came! Separation from our mortal body is not separation at all from the eternal life we received in Christ. I am seeking to understand the bibilcal terminology called the "second death." It applies only to those who are dead once already! Their first death, having died in unbelief, is to be a corpse, without any conscious life whatsoever...so I ask you, why would I assume that in the second death there is still consciousness? If there is, and you can show me...super, I'm all eyes and ears!

[DeafPosttrib]

John146,

You to me,

I made claim that he was not in physical torment in hell and instead the torment is mental, emotional and/or spiritual. Do you agree or disagree with me?

I agree.

Then you say to me-

Right, but all I was saying is that he's feeling isn't physical. When he speaks of cooling his tongue he's not speaking literally of the tongue in the mouth of his body, wouldn't you agree?

I do partially agree with you. Yes, rich man's emotional and feeling when he is in the hell, is not speaking of his physical, but, his soul. Hold on this.

You continue say to me,

So, he must be speaking symbolically there

Symbolically? I do not agree with you.

Earlier, I did mentioned about soul. Our souls are living. Before our salvation, every persons has soul and body. When, we are born again, we now have three parts - spirit, soul, and body. Because, we received the spirit from above, which is Holy Spirit is now dwelling in our soul.

Being understanding the meaning of "soul" is hard, because it is a mystery. Even, with "spirit" too.

Many years ago, I remember a pastor once told us. When you see a person as physical, you ALREADY see soul right there at same time!!

That is a mystery.

EVERY person of the world- both believers and unbelievers do have soul. Our soul will never stop being exist as what SDA and JW teaching.

For me, I do believe our soul is a REAL person and living. Even, every person's(include myself) soul do have real experincing of emotionals and feelings that we are facing right now. When a person dies(physical), soul shall never stop being exist, soul will be immediately go to either eternality destiny -eternal life or eternal punishment, while body is remain in the dust at the same time. YES, every unbelievers' soul having their real feelings and emotionals that, they are suffering in the flame, which is in the hell already. It is not symbolic, it is literal feeling with painful.

Hard to understanding the mystery of our soul. But, we have to faith what the Bible teaches.

[John146]

It matters not one whit that a believers body returns to the dust from whence it came!

Okay, whatever you say, Roger.

Separation from our mortal body is not separation at all from the eternal life we received in Christ.

I didn't say it was.

I am seeking to understand the bibilcal terminology called the "second death." It applies only to those who are dead once already! Their first death, having died in unbelief, is to be a corpse, without any conscious life whatsoever

Without any conscious life whatsoever? And you see that taught where in scripture? I'd point out Luke 16:19-31 to you but I guess that passage is cut out of your Bible because it's (supposedly) a parable and we (apparently according to you) can't learn anything from parables.

...so I ask you, why would I assume that in the second death there is still consciousness? If there is, and you can show me...super, I'm all eyes and ears!

I've been trying to but you are quite the stubborn one and are not very teachable.

[RogerW]

Not sure what that has to do with the point. I believe the "burning" and "smoke of their torment" is metaphorical or symbolic. Metaphors still have to make sense and "smoke of their torment" lasting forever wouldn't make sense if the torment wasn't lasting forever.

The point I believe of the metaphorical language is to show the second death is final, "for our God is a consuming fire" (Heb 12:29). Whatever goes into the fire is painfully destroyed FOREVER!

[RollTide21]

The point I believe of the metaphorical language is to show the second death is final, "for our God is a consuming fire" (Heb 12:29). Whatever goes into the fire is painfully destroyed FOREVER!

And the "ashes" of what is destroyed "smokes" forever?

[John146]

John146,

You to me,



I agree.

Then you say to me-



I do partially agree with you. Yes, rich man's emotional and feeling when he is in the hell, is not speaking of his physical, but, his soul. Hold on this.

Got it. We agree up to this point. But....

You continue say to me,



Symbolically? I do not agree with you.

Earlier, I did mentioned about soul. Our souls are living. Before our salvation, every persons has soul and body. When, we are born again, we now have three parts - spirit, soul, and body. Because, we received the spirit from above, which is Holy Spirit is now dwelling in our soul.

Read what I'm about to say very carefully, okay? First, let me quote the relevant scripture:

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Notice the mention of the rich man's eyes, Lazarus' finger and the rich man's tongue. What is your understanding of that? Does a soul have eyes, fingers and a tongue? I don't believe so, do you? That's why I'm saying that part in particular is symbolic. Not that the whole thing is symbolic. Understand what I'm saying? His torment is real but is just being described in a way that people who have never been in hell can understand.

Being understanding the meaning of "soul" is hard, because it is a mystery. Even, with "spirit" too.

Many years ago, I remember a pastor once told us. When you see a person as physical, you ALREADY see soul right there at same time!!

That is a mystery.

While that may be true I'm pretty certain that a soul does not have eyes, fingers and a tongue.

EVERY person of the world- both believers and unbelievers do have soul. Our soul will never stop being exist as what SDA and JW teaching.

Do you understand that I'm not saying otherwise?

For me, I do believe our soul is a REAL person and living. Even, every person's(include myself) soul do have real experincing of emotionals and feelings that we are facing right now.

Again, I'm not saying otherwise.

When a person dies(physical), soul shall never stop being exist, soul will be immediately go to either eternality destiny -eternal life or eternal punishment, while body is remain in the dust at the same time. YES, every unbelievers' soul having their real feelings and emotionals that, they are suffering in the flame, which is in the hell already. It is not symbolic, it is literal feeling with painful.

Can you explain how a soul, which is not physical (agree?) can feel pain? Are you saying it feels pain in the exact same way we feel pain in our bodies? If so I have to disagree with that. I suppose you will respond and say that it's a mystery, but I'd prefer you show me where such a concept is taught in scripture (besides your understanding of Luke 16:19-31).

[RogerW]

Even if Luke 16:19-31 was a parable, is it not scripture that teaches truth? You can't tell me to just disregard that passage just because it may be a parable. What nonsense! Regardless of whether or not it's a parable Jesus clearly portrays a person in a real place, hell, being in torment. But you think you can just brush that aside because you think it's a parable? Is that what you do with all of His parables?

You do realize that hell in the parable is translated from the Greek word hades? Hades is the place of departed souls, or the grave, not the firey place called geenna, of everlasting punishment. Are there any verses of Scripture to prove that men, dying in unbelief and going into the grave are in any way conscious while there? If not should we assume the parable, which is a similitude ("parable"), i.e. (symbolic) fictitious narrative (of common life conveying a moral), apothegm or adage:--comparison, figure, parable, proverb, is factually portraying what takes place in the grave for the one who goes there in unbelief? Or is the parable showing us something else?

[DeafPosttrib]

John146,

My understanding of the between on the body and soul. Both have the same common senses - sight, hear, taste, breath, and feeling.

But, the difference of soul/body is "spirit". At the first, every person on earth all without have the spirit, which is from above. Because, we all are born in dead spiritual, which comes from Adam - Romans 5:12. Every persons ought be realize that we are already on the way to eternal punishment without have spirit from God's. That why, we ought be born again to receive the spirit from above, in order to receive eternal life-salvation.

Do EVERY persons on earth have the same experience share on the Spirit?

No. Because, there is much difference between of unbelievers and believers. Because all believers do share the same experince of salvation at their spiritual birth(John 3:3).

BUT, there is much common with BOTH unbelievers and believers, of their experince with their sensitivity, in their souls.

Luke 16:19-31 is a perfect example of BOTH believers and unbelievers do share the SAME experiencing of their souls after their death(physical). Therefore, our souls are living, do share the same experience with our senses both before and after our life.

Therefore, rich man's emotional and sense in the hell, that his soul do have the same senses as when he was live(physical).

Yes, his sensitivity in his own soul, that he is already in the hell are REAL, not 'symbolically' as what you say to me.

Hard to understand the difference between 'body' and 'soul'. But, we have to faith what the Bible actual saying. Believe it.

[John146]

You do realize that hell in the parable is translated from the Greek word hades? Hades is the place of departed souls, or the grave, not the firey place called geenna, of everlasting punishment.

Exactly. I pointed out that very thing out to you in a post in another thread awhile back, so this is kind of funny that you're pointing that out to me here. The point is that souls in hell (Hades) experience torment so why not in the lake of fire as well?

Are there any verses of Scripture to prove that men, dying in unbelief and going into the grave are in any way conscious while there?

Besides Luke 16:19-31, you mean? I'm not sure, but I personally think Luke 16:19-31 is enough.

If not should we assume the parable, which is a similitude ("parable"), i.e. (symbolic) fictitious narrative (of common life conveying a moral), apothegm or adage:--comparison, figure, parable, proverb, is factually portraying what takes place in the grave for the one who goes there in unbelief?

Absolutely.

Or is the parable showing us something else?

No. Why would it be? Why would Jesus portray a person, fictitious or not, being in torment in hell if people are not actually in torment in hell? That would make no sense.

[John146]

John146,

My understanding of the between on the body and soul. Both have the same common senses - sight, hear, taste, breath, and feeling.

But, the difference of soul/body is "spirit". At the first, every person on earth all without have the spirit, which is from above. Because, we all are born in dead spiritual, which comes from Adam - Romans 5:12. Every persons ought be realize that we are already on the way to eternal punishment without have spirit from God's. That why, we ought be born again to receive the spirit from above, in order to receive eternal life-salvation.

Do EVERY persons on earth have the same experience share on the Spirit?

No. Because, there is much difference between of unbelievers and believers. Because all believers do share the same experince of salvation at their spiritual birth(John 3:3).

BUT, there is much common with BOTH unbelievers and believers, of their experince with their sensitivity, in their souls.

Luke 16:19-31 is a perfect example of BOTH believers and unbelievers do share the SAME experiencing of their souls after their death(physical). Therefore, our souls are living, do share the same experience with our senses both before and after our life.

Therefore, rich man's emotional and sense in the hell, that his soul do have the same senses as when he was live(physical).

Yes, his sensitivity in his own soul, that he is already in the hell are REAL, not 'symbolically' as what you say to me.

That's your opinion but you really are not doing anything to prove your opinion from scripture. That said, I don't think this is worth going on any further about here. Regardless of what we're talking about here, it's undeniable that Luke 16:19-31 is teaching that the rich man is in torment in hell regardless of how we understand the torment exactly. So, we agree on that much, at least.

Hard to understand the difference between 'body' and 'soul'. But, we have to faith what the Bible actual saying. Believe it.

I believe it, but I don't necessarily agree with everything you believe. And that's okay. I don't expect that. We agree on the most important thing being taught there which is that the rich man is actually experiencing torment in hell and was not able to go be with Abraham. It was too late for him because he was dead and that realization tormented him.

[divaD]

The problem with this line of thinking (making Luke 16 into a parable, thereby to discount it as a true literal illustration), is this.

None of the other parables Jesus ever taught contained within them untruths and deception.

To take this illustration as a parable, is to accept that Jesus within it taught a gross untruth about the after-life state of the just and the unjust.

Jesus just made up all this ficticious stuff that has nothing remotely to do with how the afterlife state truly is for the just and the unjust.

That for me, crosses the line. It makes Jesus a perpetuator of deception and falsehood, to make an unrelated moral point.

I can't accept that.

If it's a parable, why can't that mean it's talking about the afterlife? I believe it's referring to the afterlife. I just don't take some of it as literal, such as being tormented in a flame, and wanting a drop of water to cool his tongue. I probably understand this particular parable similar to how Eric does. It's definetely teaching about the afterlife. But as far as souls literally burning in literal fire, that I can't accept as literal. The rich man that ended up there is literally being tormented...but by literal fire..I just don't buy it anymore, tho I did for over half my life.

[RogerW]

Exactly. I pointed out that very thing out to you in a post in another thread awhile back, so this is kind of funny that you're pointing that out to me here. The point is that souls in hell (Hades) experience torment so why not in the lake of fire as well?

There is NO torment, in fact no anything for unbelievers in the grave. They are in darkness and silence PERIOD!

Ps*115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Ec*9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Ps*6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Ps*88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Ps*88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ps*88:12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

Ps*88:5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.

Besides Luke 16:19-31, you mean? I'm not sure, but I personally think Luke 16:19-31 is enough.

Since there is no consciousness, no rememberance, but only silence in the grave, it is clear that Christ is contrasting life and death in the parable. The rich man died in unbelief, so he must suffer the flames of Judgment, but Lazarus in Abraham's bosom is assured eternal life and comfort.

No. Why would it be? Why would Jesus portray a person, fictitious or not, being in torment in hell if people are not actually in torment in hell? That would make no sense.

Christ is telling us that all who go to the grave in unbelief must partake of the lake of fire, which is the second death. Instead of focusing on the torment, we should focus on Christ so that we, like Lazarus need never fear the flames of Judgment.