Hell vs. Lake of Fire

[Hawkins]

God does things in accordance to the Law set up, humans are subject to Covenants granted. And there will be a final judgment by Law and Covenants.

Of course, God loves His sheep such that His sheep whose names are written in the Book of Life will finally be saved, as for those wolves and goats...do you expect Him to break His own Law and Covenants to show His mercy? (instead His mercy has already be shown through Christ Jesus and the eternal Covenant)

Regarding to the Covenant, what nullifies Jesus Christ's sacrifice is the "no hell" doctrine. It is because no hell and everyone is saved that no Jesus is actually needed. Jesus Christ thus saves noone (you are saved anyway with or without Jesus. That is, because God will not put anyone to hell, that everyone will not suffer even without Jesus. That is, the word "save" is totally meanless as noone will suffer). When this doctrine is legalized even inside the Church, this abomination (denial of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit's work) will cause desolation (souls become unsavable thus no harvest) as Jesus is nullified hiddenly.

In an isolatoin from God after the Judgment, humans (the dead) will no longer humans. They are the hopeless. Just like how the fallen angels turned themselves into the devils, humans will turn themselves into monsters. That's naturally what will happen in a (any) place without God's teaching and guidance. And the burning hell awaits.

It's all about His Law and Covenants which is purposefully made to protect His sheep (not the wolves nor the goats). The wolves must be separated as their sinful behavior by their freewill will hurt those sheep. While the goats think that they don't need the Shepherd, they think that they survive the wilderness without the Shepherd, they think they can deal with the wolves and thus choose to live a captive life. They themselves will finally surrender and become part of the wolves. God's setting up of Law of Covenants are all for His sheep (even the wolves and goats part is designed to be all for the good of His sheep in eternity).

[ProDeo]

Does the Greek actually mean "forever and ever?"

Wonder about that too. For example, Ezek 26 is about the destruction of Tyre.

21 I will make thee a terror, and thou shalt be no more: though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again, saith the Lord GOD.

The city and old ruins are still present.

So much for never

I remember an old thread about cosmic catastrophes by Markedward. Also very strong language use that can't be taken literal. It's like it was normal in those days contrary the time we live in.

Don't know what to think.

[David Taylor]

There is NO torment, in fact no anything for unbelievers in the grave. They are in darkness and silence PERIOD!

Ps*115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Ec*9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Ps*6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Ps*88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Ps*88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ps*88:12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

Ps*88:5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.

Great verses...but they don't proove your point. They are common phrases that soul-sleep advocates always banter around to attempt to prove soul sleep.

All these verses are saying, is that when someone dies and their bodies are placed in the grave, their body doesn't know anything...they don't get up and run around like zombies, don't play tic-tac-toe on the inside of their coffin lids. Because the body without the spirit is dead; so these verses show us the complete inactivity of the body in the tomb after death.

However, none of these verses address the immaterial spirit of a man, and the many scriptures that teach us that once death occurs, and the spirit is separated from the body, it doesn't remain in the grave dormant with the body; but either returns to the Lord's presences (for believers) or goes to a place of torment (for unbelievers)...both awaiting the resurrection of the just and the unjust.

Since there is no consciousness, no rememberance, but only silence in the grave, it is clear that Christ is contrasting life and death in the parable. The rich man died in unbelief, so he must suffer the flames of Judgment, but Lazarus in Abraham's bosom is assured eternal life and comfort.

Your statements here don't make any logical sense. Firstly, there is conscious remembrance of the immaterial spirit of man; only the body is silent in the grave. The immaterial soul is not sleeping unaware.
Secondly, Jesus didn't tell us that the torment nor the assurance of the rich man and lazarus were postponed thousands of years into the future; no Jesus said when they died, they were immediately carried to these abodes, and were very conscious and aware both of them.

Christ is telling us that all who go to the grave in unbelief must partake of the lake of fire, which is the second death. Instead of focusing on the torment, we should focus on Christ so that we, like Lazarus need never fear the flames of Judgment.

And Christ is telling us that happens immediately at death; not 2000+ years after death for Lazarus.

Christ is not a liar; He doesn't makeup false and deceptive teachings to make a moral point.

To interpret Luke 16 in accord with annihilationism, one must force Christ to be a teacher of deception, falsehood, and a liar. There's no way to avoid that, if the interpretation that annihilationism attempts to apply to that passage is accepted.

All of Jesus' other teaching lessons are grounded in common truths; not made-up deceptive falsehood. Farmers sew and reap. Husbandmens prune. Seeds grow. Wheat and Tares intermingle. Fish are drawn into nets. etc...etc...but in this one single lesson, Jesus creates deceptive and untrue venues, consequences, and expectations....sorry charlie, trix are for kids.

Jesus doesn't promulgate deceptive falsehoods in what he teaches us. Not in Luke 16, and not anywhere else.

[David Taylor]

BroRog, you asked the question, but you never commented on the answer given to you several pages back.

Does the Greek actually mean "forever and ever?"

Revelation 20:10 in Greek says, "the lake of fire and brimstone...tormented day and night (eis Aion) for ever and (Aion) ever "


Here are all the other Biblical references of the phrase (eis Aion) for ever and (Aion) ever....tell us if they mean 'forever and ever' as the English Translators listed or simply 'limited duration' as you suggest....

• Phil 4:20 unto God and our Father be glory (eis Aion) for ever and (Aion) ever. Amen.Is the glory of God limited in duration?
• 1Tim 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory (eis Aion) for ever and (Aion) ever. Amen.Is the honor and glory of the King limited in duration?
• 2Tim 4:18 preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory (eis Aion) for ever and (Aion) ever. Amen. Is His Heavenly kingdom glory limited in duration?
• Heb 13:21 through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory (eis Aion) for ever and (Aion) ever. Amen.Is Jesus' glory limited in duration?
• I Pet 4:11 through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion (eis Aion) for ever and (Aion) ever. Amen.Is the praise and dominion of Jesus Christ limited in duration?
• Rev 7:12 Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God (eis Aion) for ever and (Aion) ever. Amen.Is God's wisdom, honor, power, and might limited in duration?
• Rev 11:15 Christ; and he shall reign (eis Aion) for ever and (Aion) ever. Amen.Will Christ's reign be limited in duration?
• Rev 15:7 God, who liveth (eis Aion) for ever and (Aion) ever. Amen.Will God's living be limited in duration?
• Rev 22:5 the Lord God giveth them light : and they shall reign (eis Aion) for ever and (Aion) ever. Will our reigning with the Lord be limited in duration?

The exact same phrase (eis Aion) for ever and (Aion) ever, used over and over again exactly like in Revelation 20:10 in which you want us to believe is limited in duration and all the translators got it wrong by saying 'forever and ever'.

So, as Paul asked, "What saith the scriptures?"

They tell us how long (eis Aion) for ever and (Aion) ever is.....not limited in duration, rather...truly eternal and everlasting.

God's Word is trustworthy, and as faithful as ever in discerning truth!!

[divaD]

Wonder about that too. For example, Ezek 26 is about the destruction of Tyre.

21 I will make thee a terror, and thou shalt be no more: though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again, saith the Lord GOD.

The city and old ruins are still present.

So much for never

There's always that possibility that this prophecy is yet to be fulfilled. I of course don't want to get into that here, but it would explain that 'never'.

[divaD]

Your statements here don't make any logical sense. Firstly, there is conscious remembrance of the immaterial spirit of man; only the body is silent in the grave. The immaterial soul is not sleeping unaware.
Secondly, Jesus didn't tell us that the torment nor the assurance of the rich man and lazarus were postponed thousands of years into the future; no Jesus said when they died, they were immediately carried to these abodes, and were very conscious and aware both of them.

That's pretty much how I interpret those passages also, in regards to it being about their dead bodies, and not about their souls and or spirits.
I also agree with you about the rich man and Lazarus. This occurs when one dies. I just reject the idea that anyone is in hell engulfed in literal flames. I believe they are being tormented, but not because they are literally ablaze.

[John146]

Christ is telling us that all who go to the grave in unbelief must partake of the lake of fire, which is the second death. Instead of focusing on the torment, we should focus on Christ so that we, like Lazarus need never fear the flames of Judgment.

Where do you see any mention of the lake of fire in Luke 16:19-31? It mentions hell, but not the lake of fire. Why would Jesus portray a person being in torment in hell if people are not actually in torment in hell? Can you please answer that question?

I'm thinking your view is based on emotion rather than accepting what scripture teaches since you say we shouldn't focus on the torment. Apparently, the idea of someone being in torment in hell makes you uncomfortable. But Jesus taught it. We don't have to focus on it, but Jesus talked about it and we should discuss what He was teaching there.

[John146]

Great verses...but they don't proove your point. They are common phrases that soul-sleep advocates always banter around to attempt to prove soul sleep.

All these verses are saying, is that when someone dies and their bodies are placed in the grave, their body doesn't know anything...they don't get up and run around like zombies, don't play tic-tac-toe on the inside of their coffin lids. Because the body without the spirit is dead; so these verses show us the complete inactivity of the body in the tomb after death.

However, none of these verses address the immaterial spirit of a man, and the many scriptures that teach us that once death occurs, and the spirit is separated from the body, it doesn't remain in the grave dormant with the body; but either returns to the Lord's presences (for believers) or goes to a place of torment (for unbelievers)...both awaiting the resurrection of the just and the unjust.

Exactly. It's amazing how much trouble some people have in differentiating between the body and the spirit.

Your statements here don't make any logical sense. Firstly, there is conscious remembrance of the immaterial spirit of man; only the body is silent in the grave. The immaterial soul is not sleeping unaware.

Right. Only the body is in the grave, not the spirit. The spirits of unbelievers are in hell (Hades) while the spirits of believers are in heaven.

Secondly, Jesus didn't tell us that the torment nor the assurance of the rich man and lazarus were postponed thousands of years into the future; no Jesus said when they died, they were immediately carried to these abodes, and were very conscious and aware both of them.

That is very clear. Why would Jesus portray them that way if they actually lacked consciousness? Was He trying to confuse us?

And Christ is telling us that happens immediately at death; not 2000+ years after death for Lazarus.

Christ is not a liar; He doesn't makeup false and deceptive teachings to make a moral point.

To interpret Luke 16 in accord with annihilationism, one must force Christ to be a teacher of deception, falsehood, and a liar. There's no way to avoid that, if the interpretation that annihilationism attempts to apply to that passage is accepted.

Exactly. Only doctrinal bias can cause someone to miss what Jesus clearly taught in Luke 16:19-31.

[divaD]

Where do you see any mention of the lake of fire in Luke 16:19-31? It mentions hell, but not the lake of fire. Why would Jesus portray a person being in torment in hell if people are not actually in torment in hell? Can you please answer that question?

I'm thinking your view is based on emotion rather than accepting what scripture teaches since you say we shouldn't focus on the torment. Apparently, the idea of someone being in torment in hell makes you uncomfortable. But Jesus taught it. We don't have to focus on it, but Jesus talked about it and we should discuss what He was teaching there.

The way I look at it, if one believes souls go to heaven when they die, then it's on;y logical that souls that don't go to heaven when they die, they have to go some place. And Revelation 20 does state that hell emptied the dead that was in it. Even so, I'm still not convinced that the popular opinion of the 2nd death is correct. Currently, I don't agree with the popular opinion. Just being honest.

[John146]

That's pretty much how I interpret those passages also, in regards to it being about their dead bodies, and not about their souls and or spirits.
I also agree with you about the rich man and Lazarus. This occurs when one dies. I just reject the idea that anyone is in hell engulfed in literal flames. I believe they are being tormented, but not because they are literally ablaze.

I don't know how spirits could be in literal flames, anyway. Doesn't seem possible. When reading Luke 16:19-31 the rich man's torment does not come across as being physical but rather mental, emotional and spiritual anguish and torment over being separated from God and not being able to go where Abraham was.

[John146]

The way I look at it, if one believes souls go to heaven when they die, then it's on;y logical that souls that don't go to heaven when they die, they have to go some place. And Revelation 20 does state that hell emptied the dead that was in it.

Right.

Even so, I'm still not convinced that the popular opinion of the 2nd death is correct. Currently, I don't agree with the popular opinion. Just being honest.

What do you mean by "the popular opinion of the 2nd death"? I'm not sure what you're talking about here.

[divaD]

I don't know how spirits could be in literal flames, anyway. Doesn't seem possible. When reading Luke 16:19-31 the rich man's torment does not come across as being physical but rather mental, emotional and spiritual anguish and torment over being separated from God and not being able to go where Abraham was.

It's just a matter of using common sense I think. If someone wants to believe that someone can be engulfed in literal flames, and all they desire is a drop of water to cool their tongues, then perhaps that same person should make a big pan of boiling hot grease, stick their face in it, then see if all that they desire is a drop of water to cool their tongue. If someone were engulfed in flames, the last thing they would be concerned about would be their tongue. They would be seeking an entire fire department with hoses and all to put out the fire, not to mention, they would be screaming in horror in the first place, and not having conversations with those on the other side of the gulf. Plain ole common sense solves a lot of problems IMO. And besides, there's still that question of, since when do souls have fingers, tongues, etc, in the
first place?

[RogerW]

Great verses...but they don't proove your point. They are common phrases that soul-sleep advocates always banter around to attempt to prove soul sleep.

All these verses are saying, is that when someone dies and their bodies are placed in the grave, their body doesn't know anything...they don't get up and run around like zombies, don't play tic-tac-toe on the inside of their coffin lids. Because the body without the spirit is dead; so these verses show us the complete inactivity of the body in the tomb after death.

EXACTLY! When the body of unbelievers die and go into the grave they are without life in any manner. Why? Because the spirit/breath from God; i.e. that part of man making them alive; mind, heart, emotion has returned to God, Who gave it. The Lord God formed man from the dust of the earth [external body], and breathed into his nostrils the breath [internal spirit; mind, heart etc] of life and man became a living soul [complete man; a breathing creature].

When man fell that part of him that was created in the likeness and image of God died, so when his spirit/life returns to God the whole man is dead. Why? Because he died in unbelief, without the Spirit of Christ, through whom man is born again, and again made into the image and likeness of Christ. Apart from the Spirit of Christ in them, when man dies he is no more! His whole soul, composed of body and spirit is altogether dead until God calls them from the grave, making them alive to stand before Him in Judgment then they will be cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

However, none of these verses address the immaterial spirit of a man, and the many scriptures that teach us that once death occurs, and the spirit is separated from the body, it doesn't remain in the grave dormant with the body; but either returns to the Lord's presences (for believers) or goes to a place of torment (for unbelievers)...both awaiting the resurrection of the just and the unjust.

You'll have to supply the many Scriptures you say teaches this, because I have not found them. I have already shown you verses that indicate in death the physical body of all men returns to the dust of the earth from which it came, and the spirit or breath of life; mind, heart, will, emotions returns to God, Who gave it. Scripture affirms that since the cross men who die in faith go to be with the Lord in heaven (including all those before the cross, who died in faith). But there are no Scriptures that I have found that say men who go into the grave in unbelief have any conscious knowledge whatsoever. They die, go into the grave, and the next moment of consciousness for them is standing before the Judgment Throne of God to become partakers of the fires of judgment, which is the second death.

Your statements here don't make any logical sense. Firstly, there is conscious remembrance of the immaterial spirit of man; only the body is silent in the grave. The immaterial soul is not sleeping unaware.

Can you show me the verses or verse that tell us men who die in unbelief still possess consciousness of mind in the grave? I am using "soul" in reference to the whole man, who has both a body and spirit. The man dying in unbelief is without life in both body and spirit. IOW they cannot move, have no brain or heart function whatsoever. But the man dying in Christ, still possesses spirit life because he has been born again of the Spirit. It is this part of men dying in faith that goes to be with Christ in heaven. There is no such thing as soul sleep! A man is either among the dead, or among the living.

Secondly, Jesus didn't tell us that the torment nor the assurance of the rich man and lazarus were postponed thousands of years into the future; no Jesus said when they died, they were immediately carried to these abodes, and were very conscious and aware both of them.

Christ is simply showing us the fate of those who die in unbelief, and those who die in Christ. Again, please show me Scripture to prove those who go to the grave in unbelief are conscious??? I have no problem with whatever judgment God deems for those in unbelief...I simply what to make sure I am formulating my conclusions from Scripture.

And Christ is telling us that happens immediately at death; not 2000+ years after death for Lazarus.

To the man who goes into the grave in unbelief the flames of judgment are immediate. He dies, then in his next conscious moment he is standing in Judgment and cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

Christ is not a liar; He doesn't makeup false and deceptive teachings to make a moral point.

Of course not, I completely agree!

To interpret Luke 16 in accord with annihilationism, one must force Christ to be a teacher of deception, falsehood, and a liar. There's no way to avoid that, if the interpretation that annihilationism attempts to apply to that passage is accepted.

Again, instead of bringing unbiblical terminology into the text, why not simply state what Scripture tells us?....The lake of fire which is the second death!

All of Jesus' other teaching lessons are grounded in common truths; not made-up deceptive falsehood. Farmers sew and reap. Husbandmens prune. Seeds grow. Wheat and Tares intermingle. Fish are drawn into nets. etc...etc...but in this one single lesson, Jesus creates deceptive and untrue venues, consequences, and expectations....sorry charlie, trix are for kids.

I certainly have not implied otherwise!

Jesus doesn't promulgate deceptive falsehoods in what he teaches us. Not in Luke 16, and not anywhere else.

Again, with this I wholeheartedly agree!

[divaD]

What do you mean by "the popular opinion of the 2nd death"? I'm not sure what you're talking about here.

Isn't the popular opinion that no one really dies, but is immortal instead? One can't be tormented for ever and ever unless they are immortal. It's impossible.

[BroRog]

BroRog, you asked the question, but you never commented on the answer given to you several pages back.

Sorry about that. I asked my question in order to get information. I was thinking and pondering the answers I got. And I am greatful to those who answered and tried to help me.

With regard to the Greek, the term "aion" doesn't actually mean "ever" or "forever". It means "age", usually translated "age" but sometimes translated "world" or as in the examples you gave "ever and ever".

In reality, the Greek phrase is "eis tous aionas ton aionon", literally "for ages of ages", which is an idiom descriptive of a very long time. We have another Greek phrase which is similar but not the same: "tou aionos ton aionon", literally "the age of the ages" or the "final age." The New Testament uses the phrase "ton aionon", literally "the ages" to indicate time as we have known it from the foundation of the world until today and perhaps many years from now. The entire life span of our world is summated and indicated by the phrase "ton aionon" and the phrase "tou aionos ton aionon" refers to the last age of these many ages. This other idiom is found in a passage like Ephesians 3:21

. . . to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.

In this case, the translation should read, "the age of ages", which doesn't mean "forever and ever" but indicates that final age of these ages in which Jesus Christ will rule over his church. This kingom may be everlasting, but the point of a phrase like "tou aionos ton aionon" is intended to bring to mind the quality of life found in that final historical period we will know as THE AGE of the ages.

So, depending whether the first term is singular or plural we have two similar phrases with slightly different connotations: "ages of ages", which indicates an immeasureable amount of time, and "The Age of the ages", which indicates that final age of these many ages in which we will exist in incoruptability and find our glorification etc.

In 1Tim. 1:17 we find the phrase "basilei ton aionon", literally "king of the ages", which doesn't indicate the eternality of God but agelessness in terms of this world. For as long as this world has been in existence, God has been king for that long. We know that God is eternal also, but if our comments are restricted to an understanding of this particular phrase, all this phrase says is that God has been king since this world has been in existence.

Most of the verses in Revelation have "eis tous aionos ton aionon", literally "for ages of ages." And Revelation 20:10 is typical of this.

And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night [for ages of ages].

Does this mean "eternally" or for an immeasurable amount of time? In either case, this is a very long time, but is it forever? The phrase can mean "forever" as it does in many other places in Revelation, especially when speaking about the lifespan of God or Jesus. I leave the question for further consideration.