Hell vs. Lake of Fire

[John146]

That's why I often say that Universalism and Annihilationism are sister views...and fundamentally both flawed with the same problems.

One avoids eternal punishment for the wicked by giving them all a pass without them having repented during their lives, and the other gives the wicked a pass by snuffing them out of existence.

Neither properly address topic of unrepentant sin of the wicked after death, and the consequences that the Bible tells us await the unrepentent sinner at judgment day.

And both attempt to still allow for the redeemed to have eternal mean eternal when it applies to their destiny in Heaven with Christ.

Those views are based on emotion and not on scripture. Some just can't fathom people having to suffer for eternity so they refuse to believe it. Or they say the punishment doesn't fit the crime and wouldn't be fair. They argue that a crime committed during a temporary lifetime doesn't deserve eternal punishment. Yet you never see them argue that it's not fair to receive eternal life for what we do during this temporary lifetime. With their understanding of what's fair eternal life is not fair. But you won't see any of them turning down eternal life because they think it's not fair.

Our understanding of what is fair is not necessarily going to match God's understanding of what is fair since His ways are not our ways (Isaiah 55:8). Whether we understand it or not and whether we are comfortable with it or not we have to accept what scripture teaches, which is that unbelievers will suffer eternal torment.

[the rookie]

I have heard things like that for years and it always rang untrue...even as a very young Christian. I know we try to reconcile God who we KNOW loves agape (unconditional) with the man's interpretations of some very tough scriptures. I wonder outloud...if the teachers of Jesus' time were considered a den of vipers...binding their congregations...misleading them and living hypocritical lives...what makes us think that man has changed? What makes us believe that what we are being taught is anything more than man made interpretations of Holy Scriptures?

That seems to oversimplify some of the issues at hand in the first century. Rather than addressing that, I'll just say that John the Apostle addresses this question directly in 1 John 2:27. The Holy Spirit helps us today in a manner that group couldn't (and wouldn't) access. He was sent for that purpose. Secondly, Paul tells us in Ephesians 4 that, after His ascension, Christ established the preaching and teaching ministry of the church (as well as shepherds, evangelists, prophets, and apostles) to help instruct us in the word. There's a measure of humility in trusting in God ordained and established institutions to help us see what we can't see on our own.

The fact is...we can't know unless we search. We can't know until we forget the things taught to us and start from scratch questioning everything...allowing God to rebuild our faith from the ground up. By praying for the Holy Spirit to guide your studies I think you will be greatly blessed by taking that journey. But, unfortunately it's easy to get comfortable in our pews holding our dusty Bibles. It's so easy to be comfortable not looking up tough passages in the original languages to gain new insights. It's so easy to take what our pastor says at face value...swallow it up and yell out an AMEN!

You seem to be assuming I haven't gone on that journey. No offense, but it comes across as slightly condescending.

Unfortunately, what you are selling here doesn't make sense. IMO, Finite sins (no matter how bad) are worthy of an infinite and eternal punishment. A temporal one? Maybe even a horrible one? Surely. But, IMO punishment without end is neither agape, grace, mercy or justice.

Have a scripture for this, or am I supposed to believe that this is something more than a man-made interpretation of scripture?

Is sin worthy of death...absolutely. These I can buy. Do men deserve wrath? Yes. Are we inherently evil...yep. You won't hear me disagree. But, consider this...what men want me to believe is that mankind made in the image of God, created and formed by his hands...who were created and enslaved to sin by no choice of their own...ALL with God's foreknowledge...deck stacked against them...unable to choose anything but evil without the intervention of God are going to suffer in this life, then be burnt eternally in the next. These same people then want to speak about God's agape love for mankind. Do you see the problem here?

I'm seeing A problem, but not THE problem

I suggest you research the original words for hell, historical context and alternative explanations for the LoF, eternal punishment...then get back with me if you still feel the same way you did before. That search will change you and liberate you. For the first time in my life, I can serve God out of true love...not just a fear of burning. I now know that God is truly what he says he is....not only in my heart but in my head as well. The Bible makes sense to me now...all inconsistancies resolved...and I'm free to abide in the Holy Spirit fire of purification.

To "suggest" ("you should") without asking ("have you?") is probably not the wisest course of action in a discussion. That's not a "suggestion", that's an "assumption."

Thank you Jesus for freedom in you...liberation of man's doctrines...and ability to truly love you.

What other doctrines of man have you been liberated from? All of them or just this particular one?

[the rookie]

I'm not sure of the point. If heaven is on earth, heaven is with Christ...we are with Christ...why the splitting of hairs? If I am with Christ...I don't care if heaven is on mars.

You asked why a Christian would believe otherwise. I'm telling you why: Revelation 21-22 says that the New Jerusalem comes "out of heaven" and down to the earth with God...and that's where we spend eternity. It's not splitting hairs, it's the exact words of the book of Revelation. There are other exact words in that passage you seem to be ignoring as well, which is why I brought it up.

[David Taylor]

Unfortunately, what you are selling here doesn't make sense. IMO, Finite sins (no matter how bad) are worthy of an infinite and eternal punishment.

You make an assumption here that the unrepentent sinner has finite sins....but since the scriptures tell us that the wicked are separated from the just in the afterlife and in our eternal destiny; and they have chosen to remain in unrepentant sin...what makes you think they will stop sinning in the after-life and throughout eternity?

It surely isn't their love for the Lord or His changing them to be like Christ that would stop their sinning, because they hate the Lord. They never accepted Him. They chose an eternal destiny without him. Why all of a sudden would they stop sinning?

That's one of the great problems with the teachings of universalism and annihilationism....no responsibility. Or false responsibility for sin removed form the sinner, and misapplied onto the cruel, unjust and unfair God.

I suggest you research the original words for hell, historical context and alternative explanations for the LoF, eternal punishment...then get back with me if you still feel the same way you did before. That search will change you and liberate you. For the first time in my life, I can serve God out of true love...not just a fear of burning. I now know that God is truly what he says he is....not only in my heart but in my head as well. The Bible makes sense to me now...all inconsistancies resolved...and I'm free to abide in the Holy Spirit fire of purification.

Thank you Jesus for freedom in you...liberation of man's doctrines...and ability to truly love you.

That's all well and good for the repentant man who seeks Christ, and turns to the Lord for forgiveness. Unfortunately, Jesus doesn't have any freedom for those who eternally reject Him, and choose to take a path that leads them eternally away from Him. God prepared a place of eternal punishment for the devil and his angels, and the scriptures tells us that wicked, unrepentant mankind also will join them there. Not of God's choice, because God wills that all would repent and come to salvation through Jesus Christ.....but it doesn't happen that way. Narrow is the way, and straight is the gate that leads to Christ. Most who ever live choose to spend eternity with the devil and his angels in the eternal torment prepared for the wicked.

And it isn't a lack of study that this truth comes from, nor an absence of the leading of searching of the holy spirit. There are no inconsistencies with the eternal punishment of the devil, his angels, and the wicked who reject God. That's just the way it is; and views like universalism and annihilationism only avoid the scriptures, because some folks don't properly understand or allow misplaced emotionalism to guide them away from the scriptures.

You tell me you believe that eternal life for the redeemed is truly eternal, forever and ever without end....and then if you are consistent; you also believe and must agree with eternal not temporary punishment (AH) or complete absolvment (UR) of unrepentent sins for the wicked.

Noone is without opportunity. Noone is created damned from the start. Everyone is without excuse. Do men prefer the darkness over the light nor not? They are responsible of their own choices to God; and that He has two places prepared in eternity, is just how it is.

Let's get the word of salvation out to the wicked lost; instead of giving them false hopes of UR or annihilationism.

The fields are ripe and white, let's do as Jude suggested, and get the gospel to them, catching them out of the fire!

[John146]

Unfortunately, what you are selling here doesn't make sense. IMO, Finite sins (no matter how bad) are worthy of an infinite and eternal punishment. A temporal one? Maybe even a horrible one? Surely. But, IMO punishment without end is neither agape, grace, mercy or justice.

In your opinion. How about scripture? Isn't what scripture teaches more important than your feelings and opinions?

Is sin worthy of death...absolutely. These I can buy. Do men deserve wrath? Yes. Are we inherently evil...yep. You won't hear me disagree. But, consider this...what men want me to believe is that mankind made in the image of God, created and formed by his hands...who were created and enslaved to sin by no choice of their own...ALL with God's foreknowledge...deck stacked against them...unable to choose anything but evil without the intervention of God are going to suffer in this life, then be burnt eternally in the next. These same people then want to speak about God's agape love for mankind. Do you see the problem here?

The problem I see here is that you are apparently a Calvinist since you say that people are unable to choose anything but evil, which is not true. If that was true then eternal torment for people who couldn't help but reject Christ wouldn't make sense. But if all people are able to choose between good and evil (choose this day whom ye will serve - Joshua 24:15) that changes things dramatically. Assume for the sake of argument that the reason unbelievers will be judged is because they had the opportunity to choose what is right and rejected it. In other words they had the ability and the opportunity to accept Christ but chose to reject Him. What punishment do you think people like that would deserve?

I suggest you research the original words for hell, historical context and alternative explanations for the LoF, eternal punishment...then get back with me if you still feel the same way you did before. That search will change you and liberate you. For the first time in my life, I can serve God out of true love...not just a fear of burning. I now know that God is truly what he says he is....not only in my heart but in my head as well. The Bible makes sense to me now...all inconsistancies resolved...and I'm free to abide in the Holy Spirit fire of purification.

Thank you Jesus for freedom in you...liberation of man's doctrines...and ability to truly love you.

I don't see how coming to the conclusion that there is no eternal punishment would liberate you. Can you explain that?

[the rookie]

My Calvinist friends all just simultaneously threw up their hands and said, "Hey! Don't look at us!"

[ShawnW]

Right and thus the problem with the logic of Universal Reconcilliation. They apply eternal as eternal when talking eternal life and yet when talking hell... just an age. The inconsistency in interpretation is glaring there.

I read a pretty decent explanation for this recently...

The word AIONIOS represents an unknown and unquantifiable duration. AIONIOS punishment lasts only as long as the punishment remains and the AIONIOS life lasts only as long as the life remains. Should punishment have an end and the life be perpetual, both are considered AIONIOS but both do not represent the same meaning. The red rose remains red by nature, but the red hydrangeas changes color as it begins to mature and suck the nutrients from the ground. We do not compare the 'adjectives' eternal in both cases but rather the 'noun phrases' which are completely different. We compare the noun phrases "eternal punishment' with 'eternal life' to discover "eternal punishment" is definitive in duration while "eternal life" is perpetual in duration.

Basically, Craig is saying that because the word kolasis means corrective punishment...it inherently has an end or it wouldn't be corrective. The noun helps quantify the adjective. Life is perpetual therefore life quantifies the adjective which would mean aionion in this case would mean eternal.

Many examples of this can be made in simple grammer...noun quantifies a vague adjective. How long is long? Depends on what you are talking about. See what I am saying? If kolasis means corrective punishment...it can't mean forever...or it wouldn't be corrective because correction wouldn't be made. Unless one wants to suggest the correction has been made yet the Lord continues to burn them in the LoF.

[ShawnW]

In your opinion. How about scripture? Isn't what scripture teaches more important than your feelings and opinions?

The problem I see here is that you are apparently a Calvinist since you say that people are unable to choose anything but evil, which is not true. If that was true then eternal torment for people who couldn't help but reject Christ wouldn't make sense. But if all people are able to choose between good and evil (choose this day whom ye will serve - Joshua 24:15) that changes things dramatically. Assume for the sake of argument that the reason unbelievers will be judged is because they had the opportunity to choose what is right and rejected it. In other words they had the ability and the opportunity to accept Christ but chose to reject Him. What punishment do you think people like that would deserve?

I don't see how coming to the conclusion that there is no eternal punishment would liberate you. Can you explain that?

It's in the scriptures but you won't find it in the KJV. And I also seem to see much of your reasonings and very little scripture to support your claims. But, if you guys want to open this up to a discussion about what the scriptures really say in the original texts I would be very happy to share my 2 cents on the subject.

[the rookie]

Unless the correction isn't directed towards the one who rejected God - but towards the one who said "yes".

Just going along with your argument for a moment. But I have a feeling that we're going to end up parsing Greek words versus actually talking about the scriptures. "Kolasis" can mean "correction" or "punishment" but you seem fixed on it meaning "corrective punishment".

You are a universalist, correct?

[the rookie]

It's in the scriptures but you won't find it in the KJV. And I also seem to see much of your reasonings and very little scripture to support your claims. But, if you guys want to open this up to a discussion about what the scriptures really say in the original texts I would be very happy to share my 2 cents on the subject.

By all means. Go for it.

[ShawnW]

You make an assumption here that the unrepentent sinner has finite sins....but since the scriptures tell us that the wicked are separated from the just in the afterlife and in our eternal destiny; and they have chosen to remain in unrepentant sin...what makes you think they will stop sinning in the after-life and throughout eternity?

It surely isn't their love for the Lord or His changing them to be like Christ that would stop their sinning, because they hate the Lord. They never accepted Him. They chose an eternal destiny without him. Why all of a sudden would they stop sinning?

That's one of the great problems with the teachings of universalism and annihilationism....no responsibility. Or false responsibility for sin removed form the sinner, and misapplied onto the cruel, unjust and unfair God.





That's all well and good for the repentant man who seeks Christ, and turns to the Lord for forgiveness. Unfortunately, Jesus doesn't have any freedom for those who eternally reject Him, and choose to take a path that leads them eternally away from Him. God prepared a place of eternal punishment for the devil and his angels, and the scriptures tells us that wicked, unrepentant mankind also will join them there. Not of God's choice, because God wills that all would repent and come to salvation through Jesus Christ.....but it doesn't happen that way. Narrow is the way, and straight is the gate that leads to Christ. Most who ever live choose to spend eternity with the devil and his angels in the eternal torment prepared for the wicked.

And it isn't a lack of study that this truth comes from, nor an absence of the leading of searching of the holy spirit. There are no inconsistencies with the eternal punishment of the devil, his angels, and the wicked who reject God. That's just the way it is; and views like universalism and annihilationism only avoid the scriptures, because some folks don't properly understand or allow misplaced emotionalism to guide them away from the scriptures.

You tell me you believe that eternal life for the redeemed is truly eternal, forever and ever without end....and then if you are consistent; you also believe and must agree with eternal not temporary punishment (AH) or complete absolvment (UR) of unrepentent sins for the wicked.

Noone is without opportunity. Noone is created damned from the start. Everyone is without excuse. Do men prefer the darkness over the light nor not? They are responsible of their own choices to God; and that He has two places prepared in eternity, is just how it is.

Let's get the word of salvation out to the wicked lost; instead of giving them false hopes of UR or annihilationism.

The fields are ripe and white, let's do as Jude suggested, and get the gospel to them, catching them out of the fire!

I don't have much time to fully respond but will do so in the future. But, did God foreknow he would make men who would become slaves to sin and then have a need to punish them eternally? If so, then how does one reconcile that with God who loves agape, and Christ claiming victory over sin and death? If we continue to sin for eternity did Jesus defeat sin? I think the scriptures tell us otherwise. If Jesus claims victory over satan...yet satan elicits the wrath of God into burning 95% of his creation...not only to death but to be continually tortured for eternity...how is that victory?

I'm sorry but that makes zero sense.

[ShawnW]

By all means. Go for it.

I'm taking off but will be happy to share a few thoughts on the subject when I return. I don't claim to have the answers. I do not know God's judgments. But, hopefully from a solid scriptural stance, I can convince a few of you that we do not serve a God who tortures people for eternity. That much I am convinced of.

[the rookie]

I don't have much time to fully respond but will do so in the future. But, did God foreknow he would make men who would become slaves to sin and then have a need to punish them eternally? If so, then how does one reconcile that with God who loves agape, and Christ claiming victory over sin and death? If we continue to sin for eternity did Jesus defeat sin? I think the scriptures tell us otherwise. If Jesus claims victory over satan...yet satan elicits the wrath of God into burning 95% of his creation...not only to death but to be continually tortured for eternity...how is that victory?

I'm sorry but that makes zero sense.

You're being philosophical, not scriptural. Saying it makes "zero sense" and proving that it is not so from the scripture are two very different things. But, since we're being philosophical, I'll reply with the words "love" and "consequences" and await your exegesis of the relevant passages from Revelation 20-22.

[Brother Mark]

Unfortunately, what you are selling here doesn't make sense. IMO, Finite sins (no matter how bad) are worthy of an infinite and eternal punishment.

Why do you assume that rejection of the Infinite God is a finite sin?

[the rookie]

I'm taking off but will be happy to share a few thoughts on the subject when I return. I don't claim to have the answers. I do not know God's judgments. But, hopefully from a solid scriptural stance, I can convince a few of you that we do not serve a God who tortures people for eternity. That much I am convinced of.

Who said that the Lake of Fire is God "torturing people for eternity"? Why would a God who "tortures people for a finite period of time" be any more palatable?

One could just as quickly say that the torment of the loss is knit to discovering the true beauty of God - and realizing that they have chosen to spend eternity apart from it, where there is zero presence of God, beauty, love, affection, etc.