Hell vs. Lake of Fire

[the rookie]

That is actually untrue. I use scripture to support my claims...With the exception of some of my philosophical views on justice, mercy, agape (which I admit are my personal feelings). There is little scripture evidence to support eternal torture...yet most Christians believe in it. When I get time...I will write up a lengthy view on why I believe eternal torture is the least likely of the possibilities. I will support everything with scripture...just for you. Sound good?

"Torture" is a loaded phrase, and a bit of a straw man. So you could start with developing the idea, from scripture, that "God tortures the lost in the lake of fire" and THEN shoot it down. But let's not waste time creating a construct that no one here asserts and then shoot it down. All are in agreement about the "lack of scriptural evidence for eternal torture". The issue is eternal separation from Jesus as a consequence for the absence of repentance and the desire to stay in rebellion against Him.

[the rookie]

You are correct, I have many that will be time consuming to answer. I want to answer them in bulk with one large post...after my children are in bed. If that is ok by the management.

Fair enough....

[ShawnW]

Yes God forenew this. God is omniscient, and His vision isn't limited by time; God transcends time.

God knew that by creating man, some would repent of sin and trust and follow Him and would be with Him forever, and God knew that some would reject and despise Him, embracing sin and would suffer His wrath forever.

Jeremiah 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

Job 34:10 Therefore hearken unto me ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity. For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways. Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.


God made all people; both good and just, and wicked and unjust. That He provided the propensity to love Him back (and also to rebel and sin) as well as that He prepared a way of salvation from that sin, doesn't in the least tell us that because God had foreknowlege, God also eternally damned those who would never repent.

God didn't choose their sinful acts, each person is responsible for their own sins. Someone who blames God for their own sin or the sin of others is sinning by doing so.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator

John 3:19 "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


You don't criticize God for meting out judgement against the clay of his own hands, by their own wicked rejection of Him....Job would ask boldly, "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding?" and "How long wilt thou speak these things? and how long shall the words of thy mouth be like a strong wind? Doth God pervert judgment? or doth the Almighty pervert justice?"



God provided their means of salvation; shall we condemn Him for having the omniscient vision to see they would reject Him?







That Christ died on the cross, for whosoever would accept Him, we know that God loved agape.

Jesus' victory over sin is only a victory for those who repent of it, and claim His shed blood. Only the redeemed are covered by the blood of the lamb...to those who despise it, it has no power.

"it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth"

"that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak." Hebrews 6:7

Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.


For those denied of the Father....there is no salvation, no redemption, no forgiveness of sins.




You put the percentages on it, not the Scriptures; however we do know this:

Matthew 7:13 "for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

This one verse nails the coffin lid onto Universalism.

Victory is for the redeemed...not for the damned.

I Cor 15:57 "But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. "

I John 5:4 "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Romans 8:37 "Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us."




It isn't about sense....which can be emotionally lead, which can be manipulated, which can be deceived.

It is about what does the Word of God teach concerning the eternal abode of the righteous, and of the wicked.

That God chose to suffer on Calvary to give eternal life to anyone makes zero sense; yet He died for those who would believe; giving them the victory over sin to be forever with Him.

God distinguishes the eternal state very clearly in the summation of His Word.


20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

21:4,7 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone

21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into [the new jerusalem] any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.


Easy stuff, for those who accept the Bible, and build upon it's truths; instead of a desire to change the parts they either do not understand, or find unpalatable and uncomfortable.

Job 40:2 "Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it. Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me?"

I don't know if I disagree with much of your post. I disagree with some of your applications and assumptions. I do disagree some with how you interpret the scriptures.

Lets start with this...

This one verse nails the coffin lid onto Universalism.

Victory is for the redeemed...not for the damned.

I Cor 15:57 "But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. "

I John 5:4 "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Romans 8:37 "Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us."

In order to submit to managment requests, I will take these posts one by one. I may not be able to address every point because I have quite a few to work through. If you feel I missed something important you can bring it up again in a future post. I won't take offense.


You would be correct...that puts the nail in the coffin for Universalism. But, it certainly doesn't put the nail in the coffin of Christian Universalists. They would completely agree with these passages just not your complete application of them when it comes to the final judgments of mankind.

I Cor 15:57 "But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. "

I John 5:4 "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Romans 8:37 "Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us."



The only way...is Jesus. Jesus is indeed the narrow gate. Do you believe I am saying otherwise? We are certainly more than conquerors through the blood of Christ. But what does the Bible say...who is Jesus? 1 Timothy 4:9-11 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the Living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those who believe. It's funny because the first time that verse was mentioned to me...I said does the Bible really say that? I had read it before, but because of my previous teachings I had never seen it. It's a pretty amazing verse if you ask me. Most Christian's believe death "seals the deal". If one has not professed belief in Jesus before death...he will suffer eternal torment. Would you agree? What about David? Law breaker, murderer, adulterer, and a man after God's own heart(Acts 13:22) and dead without professing Jesus as Lord and Savior before death. He has a double whammy. We know what the bible says about murderers and adulterers...1 Corinthians 6:9, Gal 5:19-21. We also know he was born before Christ. Do you believe David is in hell? Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26. If you believe David is in heaven then you must believe death can't seal the deal. Something happens after death to either select people, or to all people...that we do not know. We do know in 1 Peter 18-22 that there is a reference to the answer...

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. (NKJV)

Curious...I thought death sealed the deal. I can and will go through in more depth about what I believe, what I don't believe and what I am just not sure about. It will all be supported with scripture. But, I do want to address something before I sign off. I like to look at the word useage in posts. You use the word damned. But, do you know where it comes from? Do you know if that word accurately describes what the original texts say? So, are you an KJV man? Lets look at this word first...

The words "damn" and its derivative do not once occur in the Old Testament. In the New Testament they are the exceptional and arbitrary translation of two Greek verbs or their derivatives; which occur 308 times. These words are "apollumi" and "krino." "Apolleia" (destruction or waste) is once rendered "damnation" and once "damnable." (2 Peter 2:3, and 2 Peter 2:1); "krino," (judge) occurs 114 times, and is only once rendered "damned." (1 Thess. 2:12) "Krima, (judgment or sentence) occurs 24 times, and is 7 times rendered "damnation." "KataKrino," (I condemn) occurs 24 times, and is twice only rendered "be damned."

In the KJV 1 Timothy 5:11-12 states, But, the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry: having damnation (krima) because they have cast off their first faith.
But yet, Paul states two verses later. (NIV) So, I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander.

So as soon as I hear a poster use the word damn, or damnation I question if they really know what it means. Krimo means judgment...not eternal torture. If it meant damnation to eternal torture why would Paul instruct young widows to do something that would send them to hell? Just something to think about.

[ShawnW]

"Torture" is a loaded phrase, and a bit of a straw man. So you could start with developing the idea, from scripture, that "God tortures the lost in the lake of fire" and THEN shoot it down. But let's not waste time creating a construct that no one here asserts and then shoot it down. All are in agreement about the "lack of scriptural evidence for eternal torture". The issue is eternal separation from Jesus as a consequence for the absence of repentance and the desire to stay in rebellion against Him.

It's good that we do agree on something when it comes to judgment. No torture. I'm sorry but I have heard hellfire and brimstone sermons and there are quite a few Christians who believe nonbelievers will be tortured by flames...literal flames. So, I wouldn't say no one. I hope it's only a few. So, you believe it's eternal seperation...certainly bad enough. I do wonder though how this verse plays out with that...

For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Col 1:20

When all of creation is reconciled unto Christ, when every knee bows and every tongue confesses to God...is that when the goats are sent off into eternal seperation? Are these seperate events?

[ShawnW]

Here are some verses to have you guys ponder until I return. The verses have comments behind them. For the record, this list and the comments were not collected...and the comments were not made by me. Some of the punctuation is lacking and I apologize for the readability. Maybe we can discuss them in more depth.

1) 1Tim 2:4 God will have all to be saved. (KJV) Can His will be thwarted?
2) 1Tim 2:4 God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth. Will His desire come to pass?
3) 1Tim 2:6 Salvation of all is testified in due time. Are we judging God before due time?
4) Jn 12:47 Jesus came to save all. Will He succeed?
5) Eph 1:11 God works all after the counsel of His will. Can your will overcome His?
6) Jn 4:42 Jesus is Savior of the world. Can He be Savior of all without saving all?
7) 1Jn 4:14 Jesus is Savior of the world. Why don’t we believe it?
8) Jn 12:32 Jesus will draw all mankind unto Himself.
9) Col 1:16 By Him all were created Will He lose a part of His creation?
10) Rm 5:15-21 In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live.The same all?
11) 1Cor 15:22 In Adam all die, in Christ all live Again, the same all?
12) Eph 1:10 All come into Him at the fulness of times Are you getting tired of seeing the word, all?
13) Phl 2:9-11 Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord Will the Holy Spirit be given to everyone?
14) 1 Cor 12:3 Cannot confess except by Holy Spirit See what I mean?
15) Rm 11:26 All Israel will be saved But most Jews don’t believe yet!
16) Acts 3:20,21 Restitution of all How plain can you get?
17) Luke 2:10 Jesus will be joy to all people Is there joy is "hell"?
18) Heb 8:11,12 All will know God How long, O Lord?
19) Eph 2:7 His grace shown in the ages to come Have we judged Him before the time?
20) Titus 2:11 Grace has appeared to all Experientially or prophetically?
21) Rm 8:19-21 Creation set at liberty How much of creation?
22) Col 1:20 All reconciled unto God There’s that word "all" again.
23) 1Cor 4:5 All will have praise of God What for?
24) Jms 5:11 End of the Lord is full of mercy Is "hell" mercy?
25) Rev 15:4 All nations worship when God’s judgments are seen Could His judgment be mercy?
26) Rm 11:32 All subject to unbelief, mercy on all All?
27) Rm 11:36 All out of, through, and into Him All into Him?
28) Eph 4:10 Jesus will fill all things Including "hell?"
29) Rev 5:13 All creation seen praising God Including Satan?
30) 1Cor 15:28 God will be all in all What does that mean?
31) Rev 21:4,5 No more tears, all things made new "All" made new?
32) Jn 5:25 All dead who hear will live How many will hear?
33) Jn 5:28 All in the grave will hear & come forth How will the "righteous" judge?
34) 1 Cor 3:15 All saved, so as by fire How can fire save you?
35) Mk 9:49 Everyone shall be salted with fire Including you?
36) Rm 11:15 Reconciliation of the world Will fire save the world instead of destroy it?
37) 2Cor 5:15 Jesus died for all Did He die in vain?
38) Jn 8:29 Jesus always does what pleases His Father What pleases the Father? (1Tim 2:4)
39) Heb 1:2 Jesus is Heir of all things Does "things" include people?
40) Jn 17:2 Jesus gives eternal life to all that His Father gave Him How many did the Father give Him?
41) Jn 3:35 The Father gave Him all things (Repeated for emphasis) Study the word "things" in the Greek.
42) 1 Tim 4:9-11 Jesus is Savior of all! Jesus is Savior of all! Can’t seem to get away from that word "all."
43) Heb. 7:25 Jesus is able to save to the uttermost How far is "uttermost?"
44) 1Cor 15:26 Last enemy, death, will be destroyed Including "lake of fire" which is "second death?"
45) Is 46:10 God will do all His pleasure Does Old Testament agree with the New?
46) Gen 12:3 All families of the earth will be blessed Here comes that word "all" again.
47) Dan 4:35 God’s will done in heaven and earth What can defeat His will?
48) Ps 66:3,4 Enemies will submit to God Can any stay rebellious in "hell?"
49) Ps 90:3 God turns man to destruction, then says return How can one return from "destruction?"
50) Is 25:7 Will destroy veil spread over all nations All nations?
51) Deut 32:39 He kills and makes alive Kills to bring life?
52) Ps 33:15 God fashions all hearts "All" hearts, including men like "Hitler?"
53) Prv 16:9 Man devises, God directs his steps What about "free will?"
54) Prv 19:21 Man devises, but God’s counsel stands So much for "free will."
55) La 3:31,32 God will not cast off forever Why does He cast off in the first place? (1 Cor 11)
56) Is 2:2 All nations shall flow to the Lord’s house "All" nations?
57) Ps 86:9 All nations will worship Him "All" nations!
58) Is 45:23 All descendants of Israel justified Including the wicked ones?
59) Ps 138:4 All kings will praise God Are you catching on?
60) Ps 65:2-4 All flesh will come to God That sounds wondrous.
61) Ps 72:18 God only does wondrous things I wish we would believe that.
62) Is 19:14,15 Egypt & Assyria will be restored Really?
63) Ezk 16:55 Sodom will be restored to former estate Sounds impossible.
64) Jer 32:17 Nothing is too difficult for Him Nothing? No, nothing!
65) Ps 22:27 All ends of the earth will turn to Him For what purpose?
66) Ps 22:27 All families will worship before Him Praise His name!
67) Ps 145:9 He is good to all Including your worst enemies.
68) Ps 145:9 His mercies are over all his works Let’s start believing that.
69) Ps 145:14 He raises all who fall Who hasn’t fallen in sin?
70) Ps 145:10 All His works will praise Him For "eternal torment?"
71) Is 25:6 Lord makes a feast for all people And you are invited.
72) Jer 32:35 Never entered His mind to eternally torture his children with fire Came from man’s mind.
73) Jn 6:44 No one can come to Him unless He draws them You can’t "chose" to follow Him.
74) Jn 12:32 I will draw all mankind unto Myself Amen!!!
75) Ps 135:6 God does what pleases Him. If it pleases Him to save all that He might be in all, are you upset?

[the rookie]

I've already addressed the first point about God's will - still waiting for your response. In regards to these passages, however, each have a context, an audience, and a meaning in time and space related to specific groups of people. There are also other "all" passages that are very conspicuous in their absence, so it seems slightly dishonest to me to leave them out. Or, to put it more mildly, "selective" in your presentation.

[the rookie]

It's good that we do agree on something when it comes to judgment. No torture. I'm sorry but I have heard hellfire and brimstone sermons and there are quite a few Christians who believe nonbelievers will be tortured by flames...literal flames. So, I wouldn't say no one.

You seem to be not reading my actual words. I said, "...that no one here asserts..." If we're talking about all of Christendom, I'm sure there's that guy out there. We're talking about this discussion forum, these folks, their take on the Lake of Fire (and mine). I'm asking that we avoid the "torture" straw man, unless you're willing to develop that from scripture honestly before shooting it down. In regards to eternal separation and torment (and the nature of that torment), the "what" and the "why" of it, one could have a fairly involved scriptural conversation about that topic.

I hope it's only a few. So, you believe it's eternal seperation...certainly bad enough. I do wonder though how this verse plays out with that...

For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Col 1:20

When all of creation is reconciled unto Christ, when every knee bows and every tongue confesses to God...is that when the goats are sent off into eternal seperation? Are these seperate events?

Don't forget about the companion passage, which Paul develops in Ephesians 1:9-10 as he develops the idea of the outrageous deal Christians receive in Christ related to the "hope of His calling" and what we are saved from, into, and ultimately for. Colossians develops the "other" side of that coin related to the beauty of Jesus and His great majesty - as well as the scope of His glory. In the Ephesians passage, Paul is developing the idea of "grace" unto "peace" between to opposing "realms" - heaven & earth, that will ultimately be joined in Christ; here in Colossians 1, Paul is describing the "how" to Ephesians 1's "what" and the mystery of grace unto peace (reconciliation) between two realms unto the "fullness of God" (cf. Eph. 3:19) or Matthew 6:10 - His will and kingdom on earth fully expressed and realized, without the hinderance of sin and rebellion, as it is in heaven currently.

But Peter is clear in 2 Peter 3 - that while God desires that none should perish and all should come to repentance, not all will choose to embrace blamelessness, holiness, or agreement with the One who is coming in fire to cleanse the earth of all that stands in opposition to His will. They're called "mockers", or "scoffers". Many of them, according to Jesus in Matthew 24, don't repent. Rather, their love "grows cold".

[ShawnW]

I've already addressed the first point about God's will - still waiting for your response. In regards to these passages, however, each have a context, an audience, and a meaning in time and space related to specific groups of people. There are also other "all" passages that are very conspicuous in their absence, so it seems slightly dishonest to me to leave them out. Or, to put it more mildly, "selective" in your presentation.

Which passages are you referring to? And all those things must be brought into account. You won't hear me deny that. A quote out of context, or without historical knowledge can leave misperceptions. It's why I bring up the verses for discussion.

[ShawnW]

And I have read your posts...with attention. I suppose I am just a bit surprised that you know all the beliefs of your posters here on literal fire. If you say so, I believe you. Listen, I am not your enemy so there is no need to be defensive. I am your brother in Christ. I would say we would agree on a vast number of scriptural issues. I do and will question everything I have been taught by men. That's just how I roll. If someone here can show me the error of my thinking I am quick to repent and reconsider. I am here to learn as well as share some of my views. Iron sharpens iron. I hope it doesn't turn into "I want to be right" over "I want to learn and help others learn".

[ProDeo]

For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Col 1:20

You like to emphasize the word "all" in your postings, especially in post #110.

If "all" is taken too literally this would include a reconciliation with the devil also, right?

How does this rhyme?

[the rookie]

Which passages are you referring to? And all those things must be brought into account. You won't hear me deny that. A quote out of context, or without historical knowledge can leave misperceptions. It's why I bring up the verses for discussion.

Sure. Let's start with your interpretation of 1 Tim. 2:6 - "Salvation of all is testified in due time". The passage in every translation reads (with slight variations), "Who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." Which means that even your translation of the verse means something more like "It will be testified in due time that salvation was available to all men", not that salvation will come to all men. Then we can look at your last verse (and many others) and reconcile what the Psalmist said with what Paul said in Romans 9 related to His wrath. Mostly, however, it wearies me to think about going down your list wondering if I can trust how you've presented the verses - since you don't seem to be willing to deal with 1 Tim. 2 as it's written.

[the rookie]

And I have read your posts...with attention. I suppose I am just a bit surprised that you know all the beliefs of your posters here on literal fire. If you say so, I believe you. Listen, I am not your enemy so there is no need to be defensive. I am your brother in Christ. I would say we would agree on a vast number of scriptural issues. I do and will question everything I have been taught by men. That's just how I roll. If someone here can show me the error of my thinking I am quick to repent and reconsider. I am here to learn as well as share some of my views. Iron sharpens iron. I hope it doesn't turn into "I want to be right" over "I want to learn and help others learn".

I suppose I am a bit surprised that you have an eagerness to rebut "The God who tortures eternally" yet haven't given any thought to the horror of "The God who tortures temporally". I haven't claimed to know "all the beliefs of the posters here on literal fire". You seem to be doing with my words what you do with the scriptures, so please forgive me if I am being direct in my communication. Me challenging your inconsistencies doesn't mean I'm "defensive" (tone can't be read, only heard) or that you're my "enemy" (you're making an inference from things I have not said). It just means that I'm going to point out things that I see. What I have said is that "no one here asserts that God tortures the lost for eternity". Deal with what folks are saying to you - that's the idea behind "discussion forums" and the nature of "discussion".

So, let's take you at your word. What have you learned so far?

[ProDeo]

My theory (unprovable) - everybody on earth, from the womb, has their name written in the book of Life. As men make their choices, however, their names are "blotted out" and their acts are recorded in other books - the ones the Ancient of Days is holding as a record in Daniel 7, for example.

That's a beautiful thought, almost poetic.

Thanks as well to David for his elaboration.

[John146]

A few questions I don't think I know the answer to. Is one born into the world with his name in the book of life? At some point in time in his life is he added to the book of life? When or for what cause would one's name be blotted out.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Since Jesus said those who overcome will not have their names blotted out that seems to imply that the inverse would be that if someone does not overcome then their name will be blotted out of the book of life. If that's the case then rookie's theory would be correct that everyone's name starts out in the book of life and is blotted out if they don't overcome and the way people overcome is by believing in Christ and being born of God (1 John 5:4-5).

To be honest I think I have always been a little afraid to study this.

Why is that?

[John146]

I read through this thread and I did not see an answer to the fact that death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire, presumably to signify that they will no longer exist. Doesn't it stand to reason that whatever is thrown into the lake of fire is completely destroyed just as death and hades will be?

No, it does not.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Here, we see a description of the devil being cast into the lake of fire and he is not completely destroyed as a result and instead "shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.".