Does cicumcision of the heart in Deut 30:6, Rom. 2:28 and Col. 2:11 all apply to us?

[DavidBuck]

I thought that Deut. 30:6, Rom. 2:28, and Col. 2:11 pertain to myself, a Gentile believer regenerated and circumcised with a new heart and a new spirit. Yet, someone I respect has recently told me that Deut. 30:6 is referring to the future day discussed in Revelation when God will circumcise the heart of an ethnic Israel or a Jewish nation of some sort. Now, I am not really wanting to turn this into a rabbit trail End Times debate (go to End Times for that stuff), but I would like to know if you think all 3 verses especially the part about circumcision of the heart apply to Christians today or if not, which of the three do apply to Christians today? Also, if you think Deut. 30:6 applies to Christians today, do you think it has a double meaning, one for Christians today and another for a future people and land of Israel? Or do you think Israel and Christians today are one in the same? The passage below contain the verses in my questions for your convenience and quick reference. David B.

Deuteronomy 30:5-6 (New American Standard Bible)
5"(A)The LORD your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and He will prosper you and (B)multiply you more than your fathers.
6"Moreover (C)the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, (D)to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.


Romans 2:28-29 (New American Standard Bible)
28For (A)he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29But (B)he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and (C)circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the (D)Spirit, not by the letter; (E)and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Colossians 2:11 (New American Standard Bible)
11and in Him (A)you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of (B)the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12having been (C)buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also (D)raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who (E)raised Him from the dead.

[ProjectPeter]

I thought that Deut. 30:6, Rom. 2:28, and Col. 2:11 pertain to myself, a Gentile believer regenerated and circumcised with a new heart and a new spirit. Yet, someone I respect has recently told me that Deut. 30:6 is referring to the future day discussed in Revelation when God will circumcise the heart of an ethnic Israel or a Jewish nation of some sort. Now, I am not really wanting to turn this into a rabbit trail End Times debate (go to End Times for that stuff), but I would like to know if you think all 3 verses especially the part about circumcision of the heart apply to Christians today or if not, which of the three do apply to Christians today? Also, if you think Deut. 30:6 applies to Christians today, do you think it has a double meaning, one for Christians today and another for a future people and land of Israel? Or do you think Israel and Christians today are one in the same? The passage below contain the verses in my questions for your convenience and quick reference. David B.

Deuteronomy 30:5-6 (New American Standard Bible)
5"(A)The LORD your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and He will prosper you and (B)multiply you more than your fathers.
6"Moreover (C)the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, (D)to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.


Romans 2:28-29 (New American Standard Bible)
28For (A)he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29But (B)he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and (C)circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the (D)Spirit, not by the letter; (E)and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Colossians 2:11 (New American Standard Bible)
11and in Him (A)you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of (B)the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12having been (C)buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also (D)raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who (E)raised Him from the dead.

Circumcision of the heart is for all of us. In this regard... there is no difference if you are Jew, Gentile, slave or free.

As to the issue with Israel... there is an end times prophecy there but circumcision of the heart is going to be required of all God's people regardless of ethnic background.

[Diggindeeper]

I agree with ProjectPeter, but would add that it is now required for not only men, but we women as well. Am I wrong in this understanding?

[ProjectPeter]

I agree with ProjectPeter, but would add that it is now required for not only men, but we women as well. Am I wrong in this understanding?

Nah... hearts have no sexual hangups.

[Diggindeeper]

Right! Hearts are neither male nor female! And the fact is, once we are converted (as some put it, 'saved'), its getting a 'new heart'.

[BroRog]

The Deuteronomy passage is referring to a future time when God will reconstitute Israel and circumcised their hearts.
The Romans passage is talking about ethnic Jews, whom God is circumcising today.
The Colossians passage is talking about the Colossians, though I believe it can be extrapolated to any believer in Jesus Christ.

[Lisadawn]

BroRog,

I tend to be dispensational when it comes to history and how future events will play out, but I believe the promises for Israel as well as those for the church are definitely for each individual.

For instance, the verse we all quote from Jeremiah, "I have loved you with an everlasting love." Will have to look that one up. In the meantime, here is one:


For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Jeremiah 29:11

Although these verses were written to Israel, they are also for us. The Bible is layered with meaning. The book of Psalms although written mainly by David is for everyone. I have worn it out personally as God speaks to me. I mean, how great is that that he has loved us with an everlasting love.

Lisa

[BroRog]

BroRog,

I tend to be dispensational when it comes to history and how future events will play out, but I believe the promises for Israel as well as those for the church are definitely for each individual.

For instance, the verse we all quote from Jeremiah, "I have loved you with an everlasting love." Will have to look that one up. In the meantime, here is one:


For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Jeremiah 29:11

Although these verses were written to Israel, they are also for us. The Bible is layered with meaning. The book of Psalms although written mainly by David is for everyone. I have worn it out personally as God speaks to me. I mean, how great is that that he has loved us with an everlasting love.

Lisa

We must be careful not to claim promises that were not made to us. If we do, we will be disappointed. Jeremiah 29:11, for instance, is not for everyone, but strictly for the nation of Israel.

[David Taylor]

We must be careful not to claim promises that were not made to us. If we do, we will be disappointed. Jeremiah 29:11, for instance, is not for everyone, but strictly for the nation of Israel.

This is the kind of thinking that the Jewish leadership had at the time of Christ that led to them rejecting Him. They were too stringent in their expectations, and their hearts wouldn't accept a Messiah coming in the fashion that Jesus did to all men, and as a meek servant; not as a ruling Jewish King like David and Solomon.

Look again at Jeremiah 29:11, but in context with the surrounding verses:


Jeremiah 29:10 For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.
Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
Jeremiah 29:12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
Jeremiah 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Sure on the surface, he is talking to those of Israel who were taken into the Assyrian/Babylonian captivity...and their return after the prophesied 70 years.

But the overall intent transcends this subset of human beings, and becomes an invitation to all people.

Any human being, Israelite or not, is welcomed to call upon the Lord, pray to the Lord, and be heard of the Lord, fulfilling Jer 29:12.

Any human being, Israelite or not, is welcomed to seek the Lord, and find the Lord, if they search with all their heart, fulfilling Jer 29:13.

Matthew 7:7 "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." ala application of the promise of Jeremiah 29:12 to all human beings

Not solely a Israelite promise only at all....but a promise to every human being. Only the return from 70yr captivity was a 'Israelite only' promise; which was fulfilled long, long ago.

Acts 15:8 "And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith." ala application of the promise of Jeremiah 29:13 to all human beings

The time of the circumcision of hearts is now; for all human beings. Israelites are just as welcomed to participate now as are Gentiles.

Paul cleared this up very nicely with this passage:

Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God. Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: And that the Gentiles might glorify God

Wow, the promises of made to the fathers, confirmed by Christ to the Gentiles also.

Racism means nothing. All are now welcomed by faith, to partake equally together of the circumcision of the heart in service to the Lord and His glory!

[BroRog]

This is the kind of thinking that the Jewish leadership had at the time of Christ that led to them rejecting Him.

What? It's obvious by your lengthy, non sequitur that you don't understand the question or my answer. And your charges of racism is unfounded and wouldn't that be considered an insult?

[DavidBuck]

The Deuteronomy passage is referring to a future time when God will reconstitute Israel and circumcised their hearts.
The Romans passage is talking about ethnic Jews, whom God is circumcising today.
The Colossians passage is talking about the Colossians, though I believe it can be extrapolated to any believer in Jesus Christ.

.... We must be careful not to claim promises that were not made to us. If we do, we will be disappointed. Jeremiah 29:11, for instance, is not for everyone, but strictly for the nation of Israel.

I am listening to all. I guess so far, I tend to like most of what Diggindeeper, ProjectPeter and LisaDawn have said. I guess I hate to start tossing out verses based on a dyspy / ethnic Israel only prophecy. Though I am not sure whether I agree with Dyspy or Covenant, regardless I hate to starting throwing out verses like Duet. 30:6 and Jeremiah 29:11 as just not relevant personally. Once I start that, I am likely to toss out 1/2 of the old testament before I am done. BTW - I welcome Covenant opinions in this thread as well. Again, I am trying to be open right now.

But to get back to my thread and to help me understand the differing views here, let me try to define circumcision of the heart. I am not looking it up in a Bible dictionary, but I thought circumcision of heart is referring to the regeneration of the Christian whether Jewish Christian or Gentile Christian, whether male or female. I am thinking of verses that we are a "new creation" and have a "new Spirit" and a "new Heart" and this occurs at the moment of salvation for each of us. Do you want to agree and/or add to my definition? Or do you disagree with my definition? I guess before I decide which of my 3 verses apply to who, I need to know if we agree with what circumcision of the heart means. David B.

[BroRog]

I am listening to all. I guess so far, I tend to like most of what Diggindeeper, ProjectPeter and LisaDawn have said. I guess I hate to start tossing out verses based on a dyspy / ethnic Israel only prophecy. Though I am not sure whether I agree with Dyspy or Covenant, regardless I hate to starting throwing out verses like Duet. 30:6 and Jeremiah 29:11 as just not relevant personally. Once I start that, I am likely to toss out 1/2 of the old testament before I am done. BTW - I welcome Covenant opinions in this thread as well. Again, I am trying to be open right now.

But to get back to my thread and to help me understand the differing views here, let me try to define circumcision of the heart. I am not looking it up in a Bible dictionary, but I thought circumcision of heart is referring to the regeneration of the Christian whether Jewish Christian or Gentile Christian, whether male or female. I am thinking of verses that we are a "new creation" and have a "new Spirit" and a "new Heart" and this occurs at the moment of salvation for each of us. Do you want to agree and/or add to my definition? Or do you disagree with my definition? I guess before I decide which of my 3 verses apply to who, I need to know if we agree with what circumcision of the heart means. David B.

Sure, I think that is a good definition. Circumcision of the heart doesn't change from the OT to the NT, and you have it well defined. You have answered the "what" of the passages in question. I was answering the "when" and the "who" of the passages.

[John146]

The Deuteronomy passage is referring to a future time when God will reconstitute Israel and circumcised their hearts.

God has already circumcised the hearts of many Israelites. With that being the case why would it only be speaking of a future time?

The Romans passage is talking about ethnic Jews, whom God is circumcising today.

No, it isn't. It's speaking of being circumcised spiritually in contrast to being circumcised physically. The hearts of all believers, Jew or Gentile, are circumcised and that's what Paul is talking about there. He contrasts outward Jews, who are Jews because of physical circumcision, with inward Jews who are not Jews because of anything physical but because their hearts have been circumcised. Since the hearts of Gentile believers are circumcised every bit as much as Jewish believers that means even Gentile believers are circumcised Jews in a spiritual sense. Both ethnic Jew and Gentile believers are Jews inwardly. The heavenly Jerusalem is the mother of us all (all believers - Gal 4:26) so we are all Jews (citizens of the heavenly Jerusalem) in a spiritual sense.

The Colossians passage is talking about the Colossians, though I believe it can be extrapolated to any believer in Jesus Christ.

Why can't that be the case for Romans 2:28-29 as well? Clearly, the circumsion of Christ, which is an inward circumcision of the heart and not done by men applies to any believer in Christ and Romans 2:28-29 is speaking of that circumcision in contrast to physical circumcision.

[RabbiKnife]

We do understand that "circumcision of the heart" is a metaphor, right?

We do understand that faith is the only basis for salvation, right?

We do understand that God is not a racist, right?

[ProjectPeter]

We do understand that "circumcision of the heart" is a metaphor, right?

We do understand that faith is the only basis for salvation, right?

We do understand that God is not a racist, right?

You mean I don';t have to cut into my chest and clip my heart? Um... NURSE!!!! NURSE!!!!