Uh, Jesus was despised by some of the Jewish leadership. He appears to have been quite popular with the common people. And aside from the end of his life, I would not consider his life especially difficult.Originally Posted by Firstfruits
Deadpan Snarker
Uh, Jesus was despised by some of the Jewish leadership. He appears to have been quite popular with the common people. And aside from the end of his life, I would not consider his life especially difficult.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Neither Jew Nor Gentile
When you say "popular" do you mean by those that believed?
Firstfruits
Deadpan Snarker
Jews going to the gas chambers were described in exactly this manner: as sheep to the slaughter.
The same is true in Psalm 44, which talks about how "For it is for Your sake that we are killed all the time, [that] we are considered as sheep for the slaughter..."
Ok, slight translation issue, the end of the verse in hebrew reads "because of the transgression of my people, a plague came upon them.", not "upon him". Now, the idea of the servant being "cut off from the land of the living" is underzstood as exile from the land of Israel, which is called "the land of the living" by Ezekiel numerous times.He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
The transaltion issue in this verse is much more important. The phrase "when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin" is better read as "if his soul would acknowledge guilt" which completely changes the meaning of the verse. If the cumulative Jewish people would acknowldge guilt and repent, we will see descendants and live long days....Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand
Again, the nations of the world.The 'he' would be the servant. Hmmm then...who would be 'my people'?
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Deadpan Snarker
According to the gospels, he was popular.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Neither Jew Nor Gentile
But the gospels did not exist at that time. What is written is that there are some that believed and some that did not.
Firstfruits
I live here!
IMo, if Fenris is going to be true to the text, Isaiah 53:8 presents a problem for him.
If the 'he' in verse 8 has already been identified as the Jewish people in general, and if the OT always defines 'my people' as the Jewish people in general, then it looks like their is a conflict between the two. Either the servant is not all the Jewish people in general, or all my people are not all the Jewish people in general. They both can't be all the Jewish people in general. It's going to be interesting what Fenris concludes in this particular context. He's either going to have to admit the servant is not all the Jewish people in general, or he's going to have to admit my people aren't.
Deadpan Snarker
Do you think he led an especially difficult life?
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Neither Jew Nor Gentile
According to the scriptures yes.
Firstfruits
Deadpan Snarker
Why does "my people" have to mean the Jews? Wouldn't that kind of depend on who the speaker is? if the speaker is the startled kings at the end of chapter 52, then "my people" means the gentiles.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Deadpan Snarker
Do tell..............
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
On a human level, many feel the sting of sorrow for rejection. How much more then does God grieve rejection by His own beloved?
In the context of Matthew 23:37, I think Jesus lived a very sorrowful life.
Deadpan Snarker
So when Isaiah speaks of the servant as "a man of pains, and accustomed to illness", he means a broken heart?
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
I live here!
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities
So the way you understand this would be like this?
But THE JEWISH PEOPLE IN GENERAL WERE wounded for THE NATIONS OF THE WORLD'S transgressions, THE JEWISH PEOPLE IN GENERAL WERE bruised for THE NATIONS OF THE WORLD'S iniquities
Would that be correct? Since you brought up Hitler, I would assume that is how you might understand it. But the way that verse reads to me is that the servant paid the price for others transgressions, that he took their place. And as much as I utterly despise and hate Hitler with a passion, for what he did to the Jewish people, I don't see this verse making that same point. This doesn't mean I don't feel sad about what Hitler did, because I truly do. But I'm convinced that the Lord will avenge those that have come against His people, the Jews, when He returns. Zech 14, among other places make that clear.
Deadpan Snarker
Not for. From. The servant was wounded FROM the trangressions. It's very basic Hebrew.
In application, if you beat me up, am I wounded from your trangression (of assault)? You bet I am.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
That's a good question, and it deserves and answer. But consider this; during the great plague, Jews were less prone to the disease. That was one of the "attributes" that condemned many Jews during the dark ages to an execution stake. Why were Jews less suspectable to the disease? Communal isolation? Dietary habits? Both? At any rate, I don't think Jews suffer any more from illness than any other folk. So, what does the verse mean to you?
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