THE AWESOME TIMING OF ARRIVAL OF MESSIAH

[Firstfruits]

I fail to see what that has to do with my post.

You said that Isaiah 53 starts here: Chapter 53 actually begins at 52:13 Behold My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high.

That is why I posted the scriptures.

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Is 12:4 And in that day shall ye say, Praise the LORD, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted.

Is 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.

Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phil 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Firstfruits

[Fenris]

You said that Isaiah 53 starts here: Chapter 53 actually begins at 52:13 Behold My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high.

That is why I posted the scriptures.

Yes obviously you believe 53 is about Jesus. How does it address what I posted though?

[Firstfruits]

Yes obviously you believe 53 is about Jesus. How does it address what I posted though?

The scriptures were not posted because of Isaiah 53 but because of Isaiah 52:13 concering being exalted.

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Is 12:4 And in that day shall ye say, Praise the LORD, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted.

Is 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.

Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phil 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Firstfruits

[Fenris]

The scriptures were not posted because of Isaiah 53 but because of Isaiah 52:13 concering being exalted.

Uhhh yeah but you've competely ignored my post.

[Firstfruits]

It's unclear; it could also be the entirety of the Jewish people. Just as 53 is understood.

If as you say it is unclear would you say it must be one or the other?

Firstfruits

[Firstfruits]

Chapter 53 actually begins at 52:13 Behold My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high.

52 then follows, As many wondered about you, "How marred his appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"

And then So shall he startle many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him, for, what had not been told them they saw, and [at] what they had not heard they gazed.


We then begin chapter 53 Who would have believed our report. Who is the speaker here? The startled nations and the kings who shut their mouths. Basically, it's the nations of the world.

Would you say that the following is Israel or the messiah, with regards to Isaiah 52?

Who is this report about?

Ps 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Ps 22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
Ps 22:8 He trusted on tHe LORD that He would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing He delighted in him.

Firstfruits

[Fenris]

If as you say it is unclear would you say it must be one or the other?

That too is unclear...

[Fenris]

Would you say that the following is Israel or the messiah, with regards to Isaiah 52?

Who is this report about?

Ps 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Ps 22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
Ps 22:8 He trusted on tHe LORD that He would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing He delighted in him.

Psalm 22 is about king David.

[Firstfruits]

Psalm 22 is about king David.

Where did this happen to king David?

Mt 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if He will have him: for He said, I am tHe Son of God.

Ps 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Ps 22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
Ps 22:8 He trusted on tHe LORD that He would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing He delighted in him

Firstfruits

[divaD]

Chapter 53 actually begins at 52:13 Behold My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high.

52 then follows, As many wondered about you, "How marred his appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"

And then So shall he startle many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him, for, what had not been told them they saw, and [at] what they had not heard they gazed.


We then begin chapter 53 Who would have believed our report. Who is the speaker here? The startled nations and the kings who shut their mouths. Basically, it's the nations of the world.

Isaiah 52:3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.

IMO, this identifies all the 'we' and 'our' in ch 53.


Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.
2 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.


This indentifies the 'ye' of verse 3.


Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.


The 'our' and 'we' are the same 'ye' in Isaiah 52:3. And since the NT tells us there is neither Jew nor Greek, then that tells us He was wounded for all of us. The servant would be Jesus Christ, not the Jewish people as a whole. While it is true that the OT shows the servant to be all the Jewish people, like you showed in a prev post, in this particular context tho, according to the NT, the servant would be God's Son, Jesus christ.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise

[Fenris]

Where did this happen to king David?

King David did not have such an easy life, you know. He probably composed Psalm 22 while fleeing from king Saul and his troops.

Anyway it makes little sense for Jesus aka God to be calling for help from God, as this psalm does.

[Fenris]

Isaiah 52:3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.

IMO, this identifies all the 'we' and 'our' in ch 53.

Well that's your opinion. Jews see it otherwise.

And if you're going to read the book straight through from chapter 52 to chapter 54, chapter 53 doesn't fit. 52 and 54 are about the redemption of Zion and the Jewish people. 53 with the Jews as God's suffering servant through history fits better between them than 53 and the messiah dying for mankind. IMO, of course.

[Firstfruits]

King David did not have such an easy life, you know. He probably composed Psalm 22 while fleeing from king Saul and his troops.

Anyway it makes little sense for Jesus aka God to be calling for help from God, as this psalm does.

Jesus did not have an easy life either in as much as he was despised by those to whom he was sent and crucified.

Mt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mk 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mt 27:39 And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,

Mk 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Jn 9:28 Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples.

Firstfruits

[divaD]

Well that's your opinion. Jews see it otherwise.

And if you're going to read the book straight through from chapter 52 to chapter 54, chapter 53 doesn't fit. 52 and 54 are about the redemption of Zion and the Jewish people. 53 with the Jews as God's suffering servant through history fits better between them than 53 and the messiah dying for mankind. IMO, of course.

I understand your point. Can you show where ch 53 has ever been fulfilled then? There's some pretty strange things in that chapter if it is referring to the servant as the Jewish people in general. Such as.

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand


To name a few...

BTW, how do you make verse 8 work for you?

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.


The 'he' would be the servant. Hmmm then...who would be 'my people'?

[Servant89]

How long have you been witnessing to Fenris with the same approach? How many years? Does it work?

When we go fishing and the bait does not work, why not try something else?

Why not try to listen to him and answer his questions instead? Let him be the interrogator and let him interrogate us instead. What a novel approach !

He asked the question, why can't God forgive without sacrifice? Yes, why did Jesus have to die?

Fenris and I are waiting...

Shalom