Aleph/tav is a grammatical construct that occurs all over the bible. It doesn't mean "first and last".Originally Posted by keck553
The term "complex unity" is also a philosophical idea.No. Complex unity perhaps?
Deadpan Snarker
Aleph/tav is a grammatical construct that occurs all over the bible. It doesn't mean "first and last".
The term "complex unity" is also a philosophical idea.No. Complex unity perhaps?
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Deadpan Snarker
Very well said.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
yeah, yeah. We gentiles just love poetic license, don't we? Alas, you are correct, and I stand corrected. There is no Greek construct that replicates the aleph/tav that occurs...say in Genesis 1:1
But hey, as you say, it's philisopical....
then why is there a specific word that defines otherwise?
Deadpan Snarker
Ok, let's see this through...
An initial statement. If this is about the Jews, then it is describing the Jewish suffering through history. So when we look at the passages, we have to apply that lens
Have antisemites through history described Jews as looking different from everyone else? Looking 'inhuman'?Okay, I have some uestions about how this reads. What is it talking about when it says ""How marred the Jews' appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"?
Describing their surprise.What is the Gentiles' report?
Because the Jews have been hated through history, and now ten gentiles are grabbing the corner of a Jew's garment? How did that happen?!Why would the question be asked "how could the Gentiles desire the Jews?"?
It's describing a people in general, not an individual.When it said "a man of pains" I changed it to "the Jews of pains". Is that how you read it or would you say it is speaking of an individual "man of pains"?
Could be read many ways. At it's simplest, Jews have historically been blamed for a society's ills and when the Jews were "wounded" (robbed, expelled or murdered) supposedly that society was "healed".What is it talking about when it says the Jews bore the Gentiles' illnesses and pains and that the Jews carried the Gentiles? What does it mean when it says the Gentiles were healed with the Jews' wounds?
This could merely mean exile; Ezekiel refers to the land of israel as "the land of the living".Why would the Jews be cut off from the land of the living
Well again, it's "from", not "for". If you sin by causing me to suffer, am I "plagued" because of your sin?and a plague come upon them because of the transgression of the Gentiles?
Vindicate the righteous by bringing them knowldge of the law.What does it mean when it says "with the Jews' knowledge My servant the Jews will vindicate the righteous before the multitudes,
As above, the Jewish suffering has been from the sins of the gentiles.and the Gentiles' iniquities the Jews shall carry"?
The Jews pray for the welfare of the counties in which they live. Yes, even if they are mistreated there and even if they live amongst trangressors...What does it mean when it says "the Jews has bared the Jews' soul to death, and with transgressors the Jews were counted; and the Jews bore the sin of many, and the Jews will intercede for the transgressors"?
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Deadpan Snarker
There isn't. "Elohim" isn't necessarily plural.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Coffee Break
Let scripture speak for itself.Gee, I didn't realize that God was giving Himself a command too here.
Deuteronomy 1:17 Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God's: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it.
2 Chronicles 19:7 Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.
Proverbs 24:23 These things also belong to the wise. It is not good to have respect persons in judgment.
Proverbs 28:21 To have respect of persons is not good: for for a piece of bread that man will transgress.
Job 34:19 How much less to him that accepteth not the persons of princes, nor regardeth the rich more than the poor? for they all are the work of his hands.
Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
If you can't see that God is no respecter of persons from these verses then you don't want to see.
The human court can only punish the body.Uh, I understand that you might believe this but it's not in the bible anyplace. The bible seems to say the complete opposite actually. Anyway since we're on this "God is just" kick perhaps you could explain how it's "just" for a human court to punish a person and then God to punish them again.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
For the same reason the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed to bear the sins of the Jews.This still does not answer the question. Why does God need a sacrifice to forgive?
For the same reason the ram from the thicket was sacrificed for Isaac.
For the same reason Christ had to be sacrificed for David.
Because God chose it to be so. Your argument is with God.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus
Have they? I don't know. That's not something I'm familiar with. I really highly doubt that Isaiah 53 could have anything to do with that.
Sorry, but I don't find your response here to be convincing at all. In what way would a society be healed by the Jews being "wounded"?Could be read many ways. At it's simplest, Jews have historically been blamed for a society's ills and when the Jews were "wounded" (robbed, expelled or murdered) supposedly that society was "healed".
How does just knowing the law vindicate someone?Vindicate the righteous by bringing them knowldge of the law.
Hmmm. Again, I don't find this explanation to be convincing at all, but thanks for sharing your view.The Jews pray for the welfare of the counties in which they live. Yes, even if they are mistreated there and even if they live amongst trangressors...
Well not every Jew. According to Hollywood, Jesus looks just like Jeffrey Hunter, and according to various stable scenes fournd around this time at various stores, His teen mother looks just like a 30-something Norwegian princess in a nun suit; All the while we slap our foreheads at dismay at your unbelief.......to use your term...oye vey,....
Just sayin', we're not the root of faith or doctrine in your Messiah.
I wouldn't describe Elohim as strictly plural.
Deadpan Snarker
You still haven't answered the question. Why can't God forgive without a sacrifice?
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Deadpan Snarker
Isaiah 53 has nothing to do with it. It's simply describing what has happened.
Because they perceived that by ridding themselves of Jews, they were ridding themselves of their problems. Again, historical fact. Himmler apparently said of the Holocaust, "...the Fuehrer had given the order for a final solution of the Jewish question. We, the SS, must carry out that order. If it is not carried out now then the Jews will later on destroy the German people. "Sorry, but I don't find your response here to be convincing at all. In what way would a society be healed by the Jews being "wounded"?
"Through his wounds we were healed"
Because it tells them what God expects of them.How does just knowing the law vindicate someone?
I don't expect you to. I just want you to realize that other viewpoints do exist.Hmmm. Again, I don't find this explanation to be convincing at all, but thanks for sharing your view.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Deadpan Snarker
Listen, the Jewish experience in America has been overwhelmingly positive. But it would be a mistake to make that the rule; historically, it has been the exception.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Coffee Break
Sure I have, you are not listening.
If God makes the Laws and then judges by those laws, and then executes those laws, but then waivers from those laws in the execution of them, God is not just. God is "just", you said so yourself.
There is no remission of sin without the shed blood of the Lamb.
Leviticus 5:17-18 And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity. And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist it not, and it shall be forgiven him.
This is a picture of the ram caught in the thicket, that was the sacrifice for Isaac. Why don't you understand this when it is so obvious?
That the ram was without blemish is a picture of Jesus Christ.
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Numbers 9:13 But the man that is clean, and is not in a journey, and forbeareth to keep the passover, even the same soul shall be cut off from among his people: because he brought not the offering of the LORD in his appointed season, that man shall bear his sin.
Here is a picture of the Passover Lamb, and the man that was not covered by the blood of the Lamb would bear his sin.
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The penalty for bearing your sin is death. This principle is taught throughout the Law.
Numbers 18:22 Neither must the children of Israel henceforth come nigh the tabernacle of the congregation, lest they bear sin, and die.
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The simple answer to your question "Why can't God forgive without sacrifice", is simply that God is "Just", and you have already admitted this.
God is the Legislative Branch, the Judicial Branch, and the Executive Branch. For God to be just, when the legislative branch says, if you bear your sins you must pay the penalty for sin, and then the Judicial branch finds you guilty because they must, then the executive branch must execute the law, which in this case is the death of the soul as well as the body.
But God also made a way of escape so that you would not have to bear your sins. It is called atonement, and that atonement required blood sacrifice.
God can't forgive without a sacrifice because God made the rules, and the rules say you have to bear your sins unless their is a blood sacrifice. And God is just. A just God must follow the rules to be just, even if He made the rules.
Deadpan Snarker
Actually, that isn't what they say at all.
Proverbs 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged.
Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give [it]: thou delightest not in burnt offering. [17] The sacrifices of G-d [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O G-d, thou wilt not despise.
Micah 7:18 Who is a G-d like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy. [19] He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea...
Daniel 4:27 Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor;
Exodus 30:16 And thou shalt take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shalt appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of the congregation; that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.
A sacrifice without blood:
Leviticus 5:11 But if he is not able to bring two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he who sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall put no oil upon it, nor shall he put any frankincense on it; for it is a sin offering. [12] Then shall he bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it, a memorial part of it, and burn it on the altar, according to the offerings made by fire to the Lord; it is a sin offering.
But I still don't understand how God can be bound by laws He gave to us.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Neither Jew Nor Gentile
God is bound by the law he gave because we shall be judged by those things God has commanded.
Firstfruits
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