The Trinity in Genesis chapters 18 and 19

[Servant89]

I will show you why I believe the Trinity showed up in Genesis chapters 18 and 19.

Notice the angels and the Lord act like one, with the same authority as the Lord for they speak at the same time as the Lord.
Gen 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, THREE MEN (the Trinity) stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3 And said, My LORD (singular), if now I have found favor in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves (plural) under the tree:
5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And THEY SAID, So do, as thou hast said.
6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.
7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetched a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.
8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
9 And THEY SAID unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.
10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
13 And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
15 Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.
16 And THE MEN ROSE UP from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went WITH THEM to bring them on the way.

Shalom, it continues ….

[Servant89]

Part II

Gen 18:17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
20 And THE LORD SAID, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I WILL GO DOWN NOW (but he doesn't!, the two other men do), and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I WILL KNOW.
22 And the (2) MEN turned their faces from thence, and WENT TOWARD SODOM: BUT ABRAHAM STOOD YET BEFORE THE LORD.

Notice that angels will not let anyone bow down before them. Never.

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow-servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God:

Rev 22: 8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow-servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

When Gabriel appeared to Daniel, he was slain in the spirit before Gabriel and Gabriel lifted him up for the same reasons, but in the OT, these reasons were not revealed.

Dan 10:8 Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.
9 Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground.
10 And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands.
11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.

Now watch this !

Gen 19: 1 And there came TWO ANGELS to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he BOWED HIMSELF WITH HIS FACE TOWARDS THE GROUND;
2 And he said, Behold now, MY LORDS, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And THEY SAID, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.

Did anyone notice these angels are ok with this...?

Shalom, it continues ...

[Servant89]

Gen 19:3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and THEY DID EAT.
4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.
10 But THE MEN (not angels) put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.
11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.
12 And THE MEN SAID unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:
13 For WE WILL DESTROY THIS PLACE, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD HATH SENT US to destroy it.
14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for THE LORD WILL DESTROY this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.
15 And when the morning arose, then THE ANGELS hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.
16 And while he lingered, THE MEN laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.
17 And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.
18 And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my LORD:
19 Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast showed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:
20 Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.
21 And he said unto him, See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken.
22 Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do anything till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.
23 The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar.
24 Then the LORD RAINED upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.
27 And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the LORD:
28 And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace.
29 And it came to pass, when GOD DESTROYED the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt.

Who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? Was it the angels (verse 13) or was it God (verses 14,24, &29)?

Shalom

[David Taylor]

Another way to look at the same passages 18-19 you listed, showing the Trinity.

The Lord YHWH Adonai is described as three men, and many times in the plural case; sometimes in the singular case.

18:1 And the LORD (3068-YHWH) appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
18:2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
18:3 And said, My LORD (0136-Adonai), if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
18:4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
18:5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
18:6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.
18:7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.
18:8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
18:9 And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.
18:10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
18:11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
18:12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
18:13 And the LORD (3068-YHWH) said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
18:14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD (3068-YHWH)? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
18:15 Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.
18:16 And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.
18:17 And the LORD (3068-YHWH) said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD (3068-YHWH), to do justice and judgment; that the LORD (3068-YHWH) may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
18:20 And the LORD (3068-YHWH) said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
18:22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD (3068-YHWH).
18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
18:24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
18:26 And the LORD (3068-YHWH) said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
18:27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD (3068-YHWH), which am but dust and ashes:
18:28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.
18:29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.
18:30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the LORD (3068-YHWH) be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.
18:31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD (3068-YHWH): Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.
18:32 And he said, Oh let not the LORD (3068-YHWH) be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.
18:33 And the LORD (3068-YHWH) went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

[keck553]

Cool insight. What's your take on Numbers 22:31 and what follows?

[David Taylor]

Cool insight. What's your take on Numbers 22:31 and what follows?

Welcome back Keck....good to see things all straightened out, and you back to posting again.

I'm not so much seeing an example of the Trinity here, but rather, a good example of the O.T. using "the Angel of the Lord" as a theophany. Clearly by the context, TAOTL is YHWH Himself.


22:31 Then the LORD (3068-YHWH) opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD (3068-YHWH) standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.
22:32 And the angel of the LORD (3068-YHWH) said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me:
22:33 And the ass saw me, and turned from me these three times: unless she had turned from me, surely now also I had slain thee, and saved her alive.
22:34 And Balaam said unto the angel of the LORD (3068-YHWH), I have sinned; for I knew not that thou stoodest in the way against me: now therefore, if it displease thee, I will get me back again.
22:35 And the angel of the LORD (3068-YHWH) said unto Balaam, Go with the men: but only the word that I shall speak unto thee, that thou shalt speak. So Balaam went with the princes of Balak.
22:36 And when Balak heard that Balaam was come, he went out to meet him unto a city of Moab, which is in the border of Arnon, which is in the utmost coast.
22:37 And Balak said unto Balaam, Did I not earnestly send unto thee to call thee? wherefore camest thou not unto me? am I not able indeed to promote thee to honour?
22:38 And Balaam said unto Balak, Lo, I am come unto thee: have I now any power at all to say any thing? the word that God putteth in my mouth, that shall I speak.
22:39 And Balaam went with Balak, and they came unto Kirjathhuzoth.
22:40 And Balak offered oxen and sheep, and sent to Balaam, and to the princes that were with him.
22:41 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Balak took Balaam, and brought him up into the high places of Baal, that thence he might see the utmost part of the people.
23:1 And Balaam said unto Balak, Build me here seven altars, and prepare me here seven oxen and seven rams.
23:2 And Balak did as Balaam had spoken; and Balak and Balaam offered on every altar a bullock and a ram.
23:3 And Balaam said unto Balak, Stand by thy burnt offering, and I will go: peradventure the LORD (3068-YHWH) will come to meet me: and whatsoever he sheweth me I will tell thee. And he went to an high place.
23:4 And God met Balaam: and he said unto him, I have prepared seven altars, and I have offered upon every altar a bullock and a ram.
23:5 And the LORD (3068-YHWH) put a word in Balaam's mouth, and said, Return unto Balak, and thus thou shalt speak.

[keck553]

But wait...there's more....

At first glance, one can say "angel" simply means "messenger" and it seems to apply to more than just angelic beings - after all, the title is used at one extreme to name one of the OT prophets, who was a man. At the other extreem, Steven in Act's quoted the Septuagint translation of an angel in the bush; clearly the LORD God.

On the other hand, bowing in the Bible is used in contexts other than worship - see Genesis 37, or sometimes in the Bible it's simply a social greeting - Genesis 23:7, 33:3, Ruth 2:10, etc. If Abraham would have simply bowed in this context, one might form an argument that these three were simply men, however Genesis 18 describes something else:

Abraham ran to meet his LORD, describing great zeal.
As stated, Abraham bowed (shachah) before him, describing a correct view of God.
Abraham pleaded for acceptance, knowing of his own unworthiness
Abraham asked for visitation, demonstrating the knowledge that fellowship is a gift.
He also identified himself as the servant - demonstrating loyalty, fealty.
Abraham washed feet - a correct view of holy vs. common
Abraham fed them bread, knowing relationship is based upon covenant. He also slaughtered and fed them a good calf - offering all he has.
Then is says Abraham stood by. An image of sweet fellowship.

These elements of worship are repeated throughout Scripture. Abraham had the right attitude and acted on it. There was sacrifice involbed, first by Abraham abasing himself, then seen in the giving of bread and a good calf. He provided a worship experience that was centered on the One being worshipped and what He (God) desired. Lastly, he stood by - wrapping himself in the very presence of the Holy One.

[Servant89]

Another apearance of the Son of God... not an angel.... angels will not allow a man to bow down before them.

For that was prophesied by Moses...

Exo 23:20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.)

And here is the fulfillment ...

Jos 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? (Taken from some sermon in Church I heard once: Joshua was ready to take him, you do not flaunt a sword before Joshua, he was a man of war. So Joshua asked him "Take sides, friend or foe?" And the answer Joshua got back was from the man with the sword was: "I am not taking sides, I am taking over!". )
14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant? (Did he say: "Get up, that's tacky?" No, actually, that was not enough, he was still falling short of the standard, for he was too close to the holly of holies)
15 And the captain of the LORD's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

Shalom

[JoyT]

It appears to me that these ones were representatives of God but not God himself. If one is recognized as a real representative of another it as if they themselves have given the message. When they said God sent them to destroy Sodom and yet it says God did it, it is plain they carried out God's will. Both statements are then true. God was the responsible party but the angels did the deed.

As to the worship, it is not necessarily an act of worship to bow down to another, since it was a custom then much as a handshake is now. but it can be something we do in worship also.

[Servant89]

It appears to me that these ones were representatives of God but not God himself. If one is recognized as a real representative of another it as if they themselves have given the message. When they said God sent them to destroy Sodom and yet it says God did it, it is plain they carried out God's will. Both statements are then true. God was the responsible party but the angels did the deed.

As to the worship, it is not necessarily an act of worship to bow down to another, since it was a custom then much as a handshake is now. but it can be something we do in worship also.

We are not talking about cultural ethiquete here... we are talking about angelic behavior... angels know better ... angels wont allow it ...

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow-servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God:

Rev 22: 8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow-servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

When Gabriel appeared to Daniel, he was slain in the spirit before Gabriel and Gabriel lifted him up for the same reasons, but in the OT, these reasons were not revealed.

Dan 10:8 Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.
9 Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground.
10 And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands.
11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.

Shalom

[JoyT]

We are not talking about cultural ethiquete here... we are talking about angelic behavior... angels know better ... angels wont allow it ...

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow-servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God:

Rev 22: 8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow-servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

When Gabriel appeared to Daniel, he was slain in the spirit before Gabriel and Gabriel lifted him up for the same reasons, but in the OT, these reasons were not revealed.

Dan 10:8 Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.
9 Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground.
10 And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands.
11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.

Shalom

When the one bowing down is intending to worship would be different from one who is only showing respect. Considering the angels are representing God himself., it is no wonder they would show respect in this way. They would do the same to a king or other authority figure, even a respected individual of no authority. Angels would know that as well. Your argument is not convincing, to me at least. but each is welcome to their own opinion.

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

We are not talking about cultural ethiquete here... we are talking about angelic behavior... angels know better ... angels wont allow it ...

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow-servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God:

Rev 22: 8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow-servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

When Gabriel appeared to Daniel, he was slain in the spirit before Gabriel and Gabriel lifted him up for the same reasons, but in the OT, these reasons were not revealed.

Dan 10:8 Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.
9 Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground.
10 And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands.
11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.

Shalom

Even though I don't agree with this particular conclusion, I ALWAYS appreciate your love for the Word and your presentation of scripture. Double dose o' Holy Ghost for you this week!! :-)

[Servant89]

Even though I don't agree with this particular conclusion, I ALWAYS appreciate your love for the Word and your presentation of scripture. Double dose o' Holy Ghost for you this week!! :-)

Same here man! God bless you.

Peace.