My Rapture TV Project - I Need Arguments Against

[Whitey]

Ok, I must admit, I simply cannot come to a conclusion that the Rapture is going to be a separate event from the 2nd Coming. I just dont know. Some make great arguments for, others make great arguments against.

What I would like to have is, for all of you that do NOT believe in a separate Rapture event, please list your reasons why you dont believe and please give some supporting Biblical passages for your view.

Then I am going to take all of this information and forward it to the Lamb & Lion Ministry of Dr. Dave Reagan, just north of Dallas. I am going to ask if he and his staff will do a TV program that covers all of these arguments against and touch upon them. Their weekly TV program is called "Christ In Prophecy" and it is shown on DirecTV channel 378 on Sunday at 5:00 est. I have been watching their shows online and they, at times, will invite questions from viewers and I thought this would be a very good, very worthwhile project.

Of course, I cannot promise they will consider doing this but it never hurts to ask. On their website they have four (4) television shows about the Rapture, but they never touch upon all the arguments that are made against the Rapture. Only time will tell here.

Thanks for everyone's help, understanding, and participation. I look forward to reading everyone's ideas concerning the Rapture and why you dont believe it is a separate event.

Mike

[Diggindeeper]

Ok, I must admit, I simply cannot come to a conclusion that the Rapture is going to be a separate event from the 2nd Coming. I just dont know. Some make great arguments for, others make great arguments against.

What I would like to have is, for all of you that do NOT believe in a separate Rapture event, please list your reasons why you dont believe and please give some supporting Biblical passages for your view.

Then I am going to take all of this information and forward it to the Lamb & Lion Ministry of Dr. Dave Reagan, just north of Dallas.
Mike

Mike, that won't happen...because Dave Reagan and of course, his staff, are firmly PRE-TRIB. But I am just like you on this...there is just far too much evidence in the Bible that the Rapture is NOT a separate event from the 2nd Coming! I say they won't even consider your offer, because they have several articles embedded in their web site that only support the pre-trib stance. They will never put forth a TV program with anything to contradict their view. (Just type in the word 'rapture' in their search box.)

[moonglow]

Mike, that won't happen...because Dave Reagan and of course, his staff, are firmly PRE-TRIB. But I am just like you on this...there is just far too much evidence in the Bible that the Rapture is NOT a separate event from the 2nd Coming! I say they won't even consider your offer, because they have several articles embedded in their web site that only support the pre-trib stance. They will never put forth a TV program with anything to contradict their view. (Just type in the word 'rapture' in their search box.)

I agree with Diggin here..they won't even consider another viewpoint. Why do you listen to them btw when you don't agree with their viewpoint?

God bless

[Cyberseeker]

... Then I am going to take all of this information and forward it to the Lamb & Lion Ministry of Dr. Dave Reagan, just north of Dallas. I am going to ask if he and his staff will do a TV program that covers all of these arguments against and touch upon them. ...

I'm told that Texas will separate from the USA before they give up on their pre-trib doctrine.

[moonglow]

I'm told that Texas will separate from the USA before they give up on their pre-trib doctrine.

too funny...

[Whitey]

I agree with Diggin here..they won't even consider another viewpoint. Why do you listen to them btw when you don't agree with their viewpoint?

God bless

I guess i need to clarify my statement. I mean i just dont know - period. I am not saying i believe in a Rapture event and I am not saying i do NOT believe in a Rapture event. I am on the fence, i can see it both ways. If i had to choose a side, i would say its 51% for a Rapture and 49% against a Rapture event.

What i was hoping for from Lamb & Lion is to take the arguments against and discuss them on their TV show and show why they dont agree and give supporting Scripture for their reasoning.

Mike

[moonglow]

I guess i need to clarify my statement. I mean i just dont know - period. I am not saying i believe in a Rapture event and I am not saying i do NOT believe in a Rapture event. I am on the fence, i can see it both ways. If i had to choose a side, i would say its 51% for a Rapture and 49% against a Rapture event.

What i was hoping for from Lamb & Lion is to take the arguments against and discuss them on their TV show and show why they dont agree and give supporting Scripture for their reasoning.

Mike

Ok I see...well I still doubt they will do that actually..they might...but for your benefit I will answer. In order for the rapture and the Second coming to be seperate like this it would actually make the Second Coming a third coming...cause Jesus would have to come a third time and that just isn't in the bible.

A rapture will happen IN the resurrection...they are one and the same actually. Everyone will be taken up..believers and nonbelievers for the Great White Throne judgment. The believers will be judged not on whether they are saved or not..but for rewards on their works which is mentioned all throughout the NT. Do a search on crowns. The nonbelievers will too be judged on their works...which include sinnful works because they didn't accept Christ's payment for their sins.

Revelation 20
The Great White Throne Judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Notice its says 'books' were opened..not one book..not just the book of life was opened.

Anyway I hope that helps.

God bless

[John146]

Ok, I must admit, I simply cannot come to a conclusion that the Rapture is going to be a separate event from the 2nd Coming. I just dont know. Some make great arguments for, others make great arguments against.

What I would like to have is, for all of you that do NOT believe in a separate Rapture event, please list your reasons why you dont believe and please give some supporting Biblical passages for your view.

Then I am going to take all of this information and forward it to the Lamb & Lion Ministry of Dr. Dave Reagan, just north of Dallas. I am going to ask if he and his staff will do a TV program that covers all of these arguments against and touch upon them. Their weekly TV program is called "Christ In Prophecy" and it is shown on DirecTV channel 378 on Sunday at 5:00 est. I have been watching their shows online and they, at times, will invite questions from viewers and I thought this would be a very good, very worthwhile project.

Of course, I cannot promise they will consider doing this but it never hurts to ask. On their website they have four (4) television shows about the Rapture, but they never touch upon all the arguments that are made against the Rapture. Only time will tell here.

Thanks for everyone's help, understanding, and participation. I look forward to reading everyone's ideas concerning the Rapture and why you dont believe it is a separate event.

Mike

While I am certain that they will not answer your question on TV, I'll still share why I believe the rapture is not a completely separate event from the second coming. Let's start with a couple passages that pre-tribs ironically try to use to support their view:

1 Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Unfortunately, many stop here and then if they continue reading on from there into 1 Thess 5 they think Paul changes the topic. Not so. Paul is speaking of "the coming of the Lord" here. Is there going to be two more returns of Christ? No. Scripture says He is coming back a second time (Heb 9:28), not a third time, and that it will be in the same manner as He left (Acts 1:9-11). So, there is only one future coming of Christ and the passage above is referring to it. On that day of His coming Paul says that "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air". This happens at His second coming, not seven years prior to that. So, believers will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. And Paul doesn't say anything about what happens to unbelievers on that day, right? Wrong. We have to read on.

1 Thess 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Okay, now he touches on what happens to unbelievers on that day. Believers are caught up to the Lord and unbelievers will have sudden destruction come upon them and they will not escape. Paul gives no indication whatsoever that there is any kind of significant gap between believers being caught up and unbelievers being destroyed. None. It's all part of the same second coming event. An actual literal day is coming when Christ will return and in 1 Thess 4:13-5:6 Paul tells us what will happen on that day.

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Okay, this says we will all be changed at the last trumpet. Is this seven years before Christ's second coming? No. Notice this happens when the dead in Christ are raised incorruptible (1 Cor 15:52). What did Paul say earlier in the chapter about when the dead in Christ would be raised?

1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This says the those who are Christ's (the dead in Christ) will be raised "at his coming". They will be raised on the day of His second coming, not seven years prior. It really couldn't be more clear. Scripture places the day of the rapture on the day of His second coming when He will also destroy unbelievers. This is illustrated by Paul in the following passage as well:

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Is there any reason to think that the mention of Christ's coming in this passage is somehow different than the mention of His coming in 1 Thess 4:15? I don't believe so. And this says that on that day He will take vengeance on those who "know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ". On that same day "he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe". Isn't that what would we expect to happen when we are gathered to Him? I believe so.

I have a lot more I could post to disprove the pre-trib view, but this is a good start.

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

All the scripture is great and necessary, but the only thing one needs to know is the Pre-Trib Rapture-Myth's ridiculous origin and promotion in the late 1800s.

[Diggindeeper]

That IS when it originated...in the 1830's I believe. And it sounded good, and soothing, and nice. So people grabbed hold of it and took off running....

[John146]

All the scripture is great and necessary, but the only thing one needs to know is the Pre-Trib Rapture-Myth's ridiculous origin and promotion in the late 1800s.

Well, let's share that info here then. Here is a site I found that explains the possible origins of the pre-trib rapture theory: http://www.theologue.org/origins.html

It's pretty clear that the doctrine was never taught until the late 1700s or some time in the 1800s. It certainly was never popular until the 1800s.

[Cyberseeker]

Interesting background info PPS re. the rise of dispensational futurism in USA. In my country (New Zealand) it came through the Plymouth Brethren. I was raised in the Open Brethren stream and my grandfather was an evangelist for them. He preached throughout NZ, 1925 - 1950 and during the war taught Mussolini was the Antichrist. Im not sure what he thought when Mussolini got shot.

When the charismatic renewal got underway in the 1960's dispensationalism came in through the pentecostal churches and is still strong among them.

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Interesting background info PPS re. the rise of dispensational futurism in USA. In my country (New Zealand) it came through the Plymouth Brethren. I was raised in the Open Brethren stream and my grandfather was an evangelist for them. He preached throughout NZ, 1925 - 1950 and during the war taught Mussolini was the Antichrist. Im not sure what he thought when Mussolini got shot.

When the charismatic renewal got underway in the 1960's dispensationalism came in through the pentecostal churches and is still strong among them.

Good ol' Brethren. Are you north (Auckland-ish?) or south (Christchurch-ish?)? (South is sheep, right?)

[Servant89]

This is the best list on the rapture subject. Showing the Pre-Trib position is not in line with Scripture.

1. Matthew 24:29 states that immediately AFTER the great tribulation of Mat 24:21, the 6th seal will be opened (Mat 24:29-31) and then Jesus will come down to resurrect his people that were in heaven and rapture those that will be on earth (Mar 13:27). That means, that when the 6th seal is open (Rev 6:12-17), the GT is over.
2. Rev 6:12-17 states the day of wrath arrives after the 6th seal. Since the great tribulation ends at the 6th seal; that means the day of wrath arrives AFTER the great tribulation.
3. The rapture of 1Th 4:16-17 is called “the day of the Lord” three verses later (1Th 5:2). But the Bible says the day of the Lord will not come until the 6th seal is open (Acts 2:20, Joel 2:31).
4. The rapture (the day of the Lord) will take place on the day that God’s wrath is poured on earth (2 Thes 1:6-8; Isa 13:9-13; Psalm 18:7-19; Rev 14:13-20).
5. The second coming will be like the day of Lot, that the SAME DAY that Lot was taken away by angels, on THE SAME DAY fire and brimstone rained on this world (Luke 17:29-30; Gen 19:22).
6. The Church will rest when we get raptured; and that comes after the GT (2Th 1:6-8) on the day that Jesus comes in flaming fire to punish this world.
7. The Bible states the day of wrath arrives at the 7th trumpet (Rev 11:18).
8. The rapture of 1Th 4:16-17 states that there will be no rapture until FIRST there is a resurrection from the dead. Job 14:12 states there will be no resurrection from the dead until the 6th seal is open (Rev 6:12-17). Therefore, there cannot be any rapture until the 6th seal is open.
9. The Bible mentions the first resurrection (of the righteous) after the seals, trumpets and vials of Revelation… in Rev 20:1-5.
10. The Bible states that Jesus will resurrect his elect (John 6:39,40,44) on the last day. The last day is when time runs out, when time is no more, and that day is clearly stated to arrive at the 7th trumpet (Rev 10:6-7). Ephesians 1:10 states that the second coming (with resurrection and rapture) will occur at the fullness of times (another term for the last day, when there is time no more).
11. According to 1Cor 15:52, the rapture will take place at the last trumpet (not before the first trumpet). The word “last” implies there will be some before and none after. The last trumpet in the Bible is the 7th trumpet.
12. The Bible states in Acts 3:21 that Jesus must remain in heaven (will not come down to rapture us) until the time of restitution of all things. Webster dictionary defines “restitution” as “something restored back to its original owner”. The 7th trumpet is also the time when all the kingdoms of this world will be restored back to their rightful owner (Jesus Christ, Rev 11:15).
13. 2Thes 2:1-3 states the rapture (our gathering together with Him) will not take place until the antichrist is revealed first (not the other way around).
14. The day that comes as a thief in the night is after the GT, after the 6th seal, after all the trumpets and vials (see Rev 16:15; 2Pe 3:10; Joel 2:1-11). It is definitively not a day before the end of the GT.
15. The rapture should not be a day that takes us by surprise. It should not come as a thief in the night for his elect (1Th 5:2; Rev 3:3; 1Cor 2:9-10). We are not supposed to be in darkness because the deep secrets of God the Father have been made available to us the Church through the Spirit.
16. We should seek first the kingdom of God (Mat 6:33). If we do that, everything else will be added unto us. The time of the kingdom of God is the Great Tribulation (Rev 12:10). The Bible says we must go through much tribulation before entering in the Kingdom of God (Acts 14:22). It also says we are appointed to go through tribulation (1Th 3:3-4). The cross brings power (1Cor 1:18 ). I am exceedingly joyful in tribulation (2Cor 7:4). The disciples were happy to be beaten for the name of Jesus (Acts 5:40-42). If they beat Jesus and crucified him, what would they do to the Church? (See Luk 23:31). The Bible says that in this world we shall have tribulation (John 16:33).
17. The Bible calls it the day of Christ when the bride of Jesus (the Church) is presented to him blameless and spotless (1Th 3:13; 1Cor 1:7-8; Phi 1:6,10; Phi 2:15-16; 2Th 2:1-3; 2Cor 1:14; 1Th 2:19; 1Th 5:23). But 2Th 2:1-3 states that day of Christ will not come until FIRST, there be a falling away and the man of sin be revealed. The falling away has to happen first, then the Antichrist has to be revealed, and then, after the antichrist is revealed, then comes our gathering together with him (the rapture), the day of Christ.
18. In the parables of Matthew 13, there is a prophetic order showing the history of the Church from beginning to end. It starts with the sower and it ends at the second coming (harvest time). Israel represents the treasure that was hidden and then found in 1948 (Exo 19:5; Psalm 135:4). After that one comes the pearl (a pearl is created when a grain of sand irritates the oyster and that speaks of tribulation). After the pearl, comes the net, the end of the world.
19. The Church is refined, made blames and spotless, perfect, through affliction and tribulation, just like Jesus (Heb 2:10; Daniel 11:35; Isa 48:10; 1Pet 4:1; 1Pet 5:10).
20. The greatest revival in history will take place during the GT (Rev 7:14). It does not make sense to see that happen when the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way.
21. The specialty of the HS is to comfort God’s people that are going through tribulation (2Cor 1:4). It does not make sense for God to take the Comforter out of the way, to leave and forsake his people (those that died for him during the GT as shown in Rev 7:14) when we need him the most.
22. The blessed hope that Christians look for in Titus 2:13 is eternal life (Tit 1:2; Tit 3:7) which will come after the GT (we are still mortals, eternal life will arrive in the world to come, Mat 10:30).
23. Christians do not look for a rapture before the GT, we look for the coming of the Lord at the end of the GT (2Pet 3:12).
24. The Bible says that God can not lie. But it just so happens, that God said that, when He declared that the blessed hope is eternal life (Tit 1:2).
25. When Jesus comes back in the clouds for us (the Church), the Bible says that every eye shall see him (Rev 1:7).
26. The reason why God send plagues to Egypt was to show he is so powerful, that he can pour plagues on the wicked while sparing his elect, without having to remove his elect from the planet (Exo 11:7). Jesus is against a doctrine that states that God has to remove his elect to protect his people from his own plagues (John 17:15). We need to pray like Jesus.
27. When God promised to KEEP us FROM the hour of temptation (Rev 3:10; the GT), he did not mean removing us from the planet (John 17:15).
28. Parallels: 7th seal = 7th trumpet = 7th vial (they all come with thunders, lightning, voices, a great earthquake and great hail which are the signs of God coming down to earth as shown in Exo 19:16-19).
29. Parallels 6th seal happens at the end of the 6th trumpet = 6th vial. Note: the 6th trumpet and the 6th vial deal with the Euphrates river and Armageddon, which ends at the 6th seal (Rev 9:13-19; Rev 16:12-16). See also Zep 3:8; Zec 12:3-4, and Luke 21:20-25. It is in the midst of the 6th vial that Jesus said that he will come as a thief (Rev 16:15).
30. The Bible says that the 5th seal is almost at the end of the GT (Rev 6:9-11).
31. The Bible is blatantly clear when it states that the Jews are part of the one body of Christ, the Church (1Cor 12:13; Gal 3:28; Eph 2:14-19; Eph 3:4-6; Col 3:11; 1Cor 10:1-4; Act 13:26; Rom 1:16; Rom 3:1-9,24-30; Rom 4:16; Rom chapters 9,10 & 11; Rom 12:1-5). Concerning the truth that the Jews are part of the church, the Bible says: “Let God be true and everyman a liar” (Rom 3:1-4).
32. Everywhere in Scriptures that God shows the rapture, it is shown after the 6th seal or at the day of wrath (Psalm 18; Isa 13; 1Th 3:13; 1Cor 15:52; 2Th 1:6-8; Mat 24:21-31; Rev 14:14-15)

What you will not find in Scriptures… There are no verses that state:

1. That Daniel’s 70th week is what triggers God’s wrath.
2. That the first 5 seals or the first 6 trumpets are part of God’s wrath.
3. That there will be an invisible coming of Jesus Christ.
4. That Abraham, Jacob, David, Moses, Joshua and Noah are not part of the body of Christ (the Church).
5. That the Holy Spirit is the one that is the restrainer of 2The 2:1-12.
6. That there is a rapture before the great tribulation or before the first seal.
7. That there will be a rapture before the 6th seal or before the 7th trumpet.
8. That all the seals, trumpets and vials will occur within a period of 7 years.
9. That God is more interested in comforting the flesh than building the character of the Church.

Shalom

[Stephen1]

"I am on the fence"

>Don't stay there .... not good to be on the fence

>Here is why: [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:15-19]

>There are a number of scriptures that describe the Lord's "harpazo" action for today's church

>And here is the evidence of this pre-tribulation event: [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 18:4; 19:1-9; 19:11-14; 20:4(those on thrones)]

>The immortal church is seen with the Lord dwelling in heaven just before, during, and at the end of the tribulation period