"When I Have Opened Your Graves"

[divaD]

Can you explain what God meant in the following?

Is 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
Is 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

Firstfruits

Try reading those verses in context. God is not speaking in general. He's specifically addressing certain ones. Look at verse 12 for instance.

12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

To me, and maybe it's just me, but it looks like these folks were trespassing, so to speak. But if one takes those verses out of context, one might conclude that God was speaking in general, when He never was.

[Firstfruits]

Try reading those verses in context. God is not speaking in general. He's specifically addressing certain ones. Look at verse 12 for instance.

12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

To me, and maybe it's just me, but it looks like these folks were trespassing, so to speak. But if one takes those verses out of context, one might conclude that God was speaking in general, when He never was.

I agree with you that they were not doing Gods will. But then does that mean that only by doing all that God has commanded will our offering be acceptable to God, if so what does God expect from believers that we, Gods children, are acceptable to God?

Firstfruits

[RogerW]

The scriptures reveal God's intent to return the twelve tribes of Jacob back to the land of Palestine, reestablish them as a nation, supernaturally change their hearts and minds (circumcised their hearts: Deuteronomy 30) so that each one of them believes in God, has faith in God, wants to keep his commandments, ordinances and statutes, and live as a holy people.

However your doctrine tells us it is NOT the twelve tribes that descended from Jacob...you say that God will only do this for Jews living when Christ comes again....and sadly this you claim is "THE WHOLE HOUSE OF ISRAEL"...And in addition you want us to believe that only those Jews alive when Christ returns will be supernaturally changed, believe in God, have faith in God, want to keep His commandments, ordinances, and statutes, and live as holy people! According to your doctrine it will simply be too bad for all the millions of Jews, from the tribes that descended from Jacob, who have already died in unbelief...too bad for them that they were not born at the right time!

Yet Scripture affirms that in Christ "the whole house of Israel" whether they be Jew or Gentile are being supernaturally changed by grace through faith when they "hear" the gospel of salvation proclaimed by the power of God.

It means that they obey his commands, keep his laws, celebrate his festivals, and live as a holy and sanctified people. In exchange, Yahweh promised that the Twelve Tribes would be his people. And what does that mean? It means that as his people, God promises to bless them materially, giving them lots of crops, lots of animals, lots of children, protection from their enemies: peace and prosperity and long life on the land.

You've forgotten one little tiny promise attached to those blessings! Blessings from God and long life in the land of promise would only remain theirs IF IF IF they obeyed God!

On the whole, this never took place.

Either all the promises of God to the physical Hebrew nation were fulfilled or the Bible is wrong!

Jos*21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos*21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos*21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

The Twelve Tribes, as a unit, never took Yahweh to be their God. They worshiped idols and sought protection from other gods, and sought protection from stronger nations, and they rebelled against his appointed priests and his appointed judges and his anointed prophets. For this reason, God had to punish them and at one point he had to send them into exile. For all intents and purposes, this national experiment in holiness failed miserably.

Their failure to obey God does not mean that God has failed! It fact it assures us that God is faithful to ALL of His promises! You see ALL of the promises of God are YES and AMEN! The nation perished from the promised land because they forsook God and turned to idols and paganism, as they always have.

Jos*23:11 Take good heed therefore unto yourselves, that ye love the LORD your God.
Jos*23:12 Else if ye do in any wise go back, and cleave unto the remnant of these nations, even these that remain among you, and shall make marriages with them, and go in unto them, and they to you:
Jos*23:13 Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.
Jos*23:14 And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.
Jos*23:15 Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.
Jos*23:16 When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.

But you would have us to believe that it doesn't matter to God, that His anger will be appeased by another group of Jews, who continue to reject the Son...but that's okay can they can still be made right with God through obedience to the law!!! Your doctrine greatly errs! To turn again to that which Christ has abolished will be an abomination unto God, not the blessing you hope it will bring!

God sent the prophet Ezekiel to tell Israel that he has not given up on his plan to make the twelve tribes of Israel into a holy nation. God will do this, not for their sakes but for his. He will reconstitute the nation of Israel, bring the Twelve tribes back to the land. They will, this time, accept Yahweh as their God, not in name only but in fact. For the twelve tribes will all agree to obey Yahweh, keeping all of his commands, ordinances, and statues and festivals and animal sacrifices and all of it. Not only will they do the law, they will have the law written on their hearts such that each of them will have holy motivations, outlook, faith, hope, and trust in Yahweh. Not only this God will be their God, not in name only but in fact. Not only will he cause Israel to increase in material wealth, with lots of crops, lots of animals, and lots of children, he will supernaturally protect them from the surrounding nations.

Ezekiel's prophesy is to "the whole house of Israel"...the Israel of God, a spiritual people, not an ethnic people. If the nation ever returns to ceremonies and sacrifices then the wrath of God will consume them wholly in the cleansing fire that will come down from God out of heaven. None who go back to the Old can be saved, for there no longer remains any sacrifice (Christ) for them.

No, you are wrong about Abraham. He already had a physical land. God took him out of the land of Ur and Haran and settled him in the land of Palestine. God promised it to him; he gave it to him; and he lived there until he died. Before Abraham died, God told him that his children would be taken captive into Egypt, but 400 years later God would bring them out of Egypt and settle them in the land that God gave them. This God did.

Abraham lived as a stranger and pilgrim on the earth. He NEVER possessed the land of promise, and he was never seeking to possess literal land. Abraham's faith, like all those of faith found in Heb 11 looked for a home eternal in heaven, a city that has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

That's right. This may be hard for us to accept, since we are so accustomed to being selfish and our modern faith seems to be focused on us. And yet, Ezekiel was talking to his contemporaries about a future reconstitution of the nation of Israel, an event that they would never see. And those of Ezekiel's time who have faith in God and love God, will find Ezekiel's message to be good news. They will not be there when the nation rises again, but they rejoice that it will.

This...sadly is a pipe dream! There is no longer two people, but one people in Christ! And today is the day of salvation through the One Sacrifice; Christ. If one thinks that salvation will be available after Christ comes again...well lets just say I understand very well why "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth".

Ezekiel's prophecy isn't about individual Jews; it's about the nation of Israel.

EXACTLY! The Whole House of Israel! The Israel of God! This nation is not limited to Jews, but unto all the nations of the world by grace through faith!

That's the way faith works. Often times we are asked to believe and trust in a promise that won't be fulfilled until long after we are dead.

But what promises of God are we asked to believe will be fulfilled in the future but will be of no consquence whatsoever to us? God's promise is to "the whole house of Israel"...yet your doctrine tells us that does not mean every ethnic Jew, but only a very limited number of Jews alive when Christ comes.

God promised Abraham that he would bring Abraham's people back home from Egypt, but this event was to take place 400 plus years after Abraham was dead. He was being asked to trust God about something that would take place hundreds of years after he was dead.

And God kept His promises! Even the promise that they would soon perish from the good land IF they turned away from serving the True God! But what we don't find is God promising Abraham that only some of his physical seed will inherit the land of promise!

God made a promise to David that one day, a son of David would rule on David's throne forever.

God has kept His promise through Christ!

In order for David to have faith, he had to trust God for something that would take place thousands of years after his death, not just hundreds, but thousands of years. And yet David rejoiced to hear about it.

Of course the promise was blessings that would come unto ALL those who have the same faith as David. Knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne. "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." Notice David had great faith knowing the promise of God was not limited to only a few, but rather to all who believe Christ.

Yes, that's right. God is going to set up this particular state of affairs in order to restore his name. Those of the Twelve Tribes and anyone else who wishes to enter those tribes in the appropriate way, living in land of promise at the time, will be blessed with forgiveness of sins. And if I read my prophecy right, each of them will turn to Jesus Christ as their personal savior. But Jews don't need to wait for this event to take place. Any Jew can turn to the Lord right now, believing in his son Jesus Christ, and find forgiveness of sins.

This is not reading biblical prophesy...this is reading the works of fiction! In essence you teach there are two ways to appropriate the promise of salvation...by grace through faith or by grace through obedience to abominable, discarded Levitical laws??? Sad thing is that obedience to the law never justified any man, and never will.

On the contrary, no where does the Bible say that the animal sacrifices are gone forever. If you are referring to the book of Hebrews, I think that if you read carefully, what you will find is that the New Covenant replaces the Old Covenant, and that the animal sacrifices are a shadow of the sacrifice of Christ.

YES....did you miss the cross? The cross took away the Old FOREVER!

Heb*10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb*10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb*10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Heb*9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb*9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb*9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb*9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb*9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb*9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb*9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Heb*7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Heb*7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Having said that, I must remind you that Jesus reinterpreted the Passover meal, also as a memorial to his sacrifice and rather than telling his Jewish disciples that the Passover meal has ended, he encouraged them to continue eating the Passover. And need I remind you also that the animal sacrifices didn't end after the crucifixion of Jesus, they ended when the Jews defiled their own temple during the Roman wars, when God allowed Titus to enter the city and destroy the temple.

NO..actually the book of Hebrews makes it abundantly clear the sacrificial system was done away through the sacrifice of Christ. Just because unbelieving Jews failed to recognize this fact does not make it any less a FACT!

And after His death, His disciples understood the Old was gone FOREVER, never to return, and the fact they continued to partake of the passover was to never forget what God had done for His chosen people when He freed them from bondage. But Christian Jews also partook of the new celebration in rememberance of what Christ had done for them by His sacrificial death when they drank the communion of the blood of Christ, and brake bread in the communion of the body of Christ. It was after His death that the Spirit brought them rememberance of all that Christ had taught them to observe and do.

Now, since God was the one who instituted the sacrifices in the first place, and it was God who used the sacrifices as a picture of what Jesus did on the cross, why do you have a problem with the reinstitution the sacrifices again if that is his choice?

You just don't get it! The sacrifices were pointing to the true sacrifice of Christ! To say the signs and symbols are coming back is to say the true sacrifice by the blood of Christ could not take away sin. A return to the old that cannot purge our sins means that Christ would have to be made a spectacle for them a second time if they will be saved. To return to the old means that you have "trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace."

Heb*10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb*10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb*10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb*10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb*10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb*10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

And it is his choice as it is written ""For thus says the Lord, 'David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel; and the Levitical priests shall never lack a man before Me to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to prepare sacrifices continually.' "

Christ is that Man! And He is NOW seated on the throne of David FOREVER! Christians are NOW kings and priests unto God...offering a more perfect sacrifice, that is Christ Jesus our Lord! Why offer up sacrifices that can never cleanse, when we have the Saviour? Especially when we know the Old were shadows/signs/symbols of the true that would come...Christ The Messiah!

As I say, it is God's purpose to restore his holy name.

Where can I find it is God's purpose to restore His holy name in Scripture?

[divaD]

Where can I find it is God's purpose to restore His holy name in Scripture?

I'm not entirely certain what passages BroRog has in mind here, but Ezekiel 36 may be a good place to look, among other places as well.

[BroRog]

I'm not entirely certain what passages BroRog has in mind here, but Ezekiel 36 may be a good place to look, among other places as well.

Yes, Ezekiel 36. And of course, the Lord's prayer.

[BroRog]

According to your doctrine it will simply be too bad for all the millions of Jews, from the tribes that descended from Jacob, who have already died in unbelief...too bad for them that they were not born at the right time!

I agree. It is too bad.

Yet Scripture affirms that in Christ "the whole house of Israel" whether they be Jew or Gentile are being supernaturally changed by grace through faith when they "hear" the gospel of salvation proclaimed by the power of God.

No it doesn't.

You've forgotten one little tiny promise attached to those blessings! Blessings from God and long life in the land of promise would only remain theirs IF IF IF they obeyed God!

And they will. I thought I mentioned that.

Either all the promises of God to the physical Hebrew nation were fulfilled or the Bible is wrong!

Where does the scripture teach that God must keep his promises a few days after he makes them? Peter says that God is not slow about his promises as people count slowness. Secondly, the passage you cite from Joshua simply says that God gave Israel the land. I hope you are aware that a lot of history has taken place since then, especially that God had sent them into exile. Ezekiel is speaking to those in exile about a time when God would bring them back to the land.

Their failure to obey God does not mean that God has failed! It fact it assures us that God is faithful to ALL of His promises! You see ALL of the promises of God are YES and AMEN! The nation perished from the promised land because they forsook God and turned to idols and paganism, as they always have.

No, as Paul says in Romans 11, God has not forsaken his people whom he foreknew.

But you would have us to believe that it doesn't matter to God, that His anger will be appeased by another group of Jews, who continue to reject the Son...but that's okay can they can still be made right with God through obedience to the law!!! Your doctrine greatly errs! To turn again to that which Christ has abolished will be an abomination unto God, not the blessing you hope it will bring!

First of all, I don't understand your anger or your excitement and why you have put words in my mouth. I thought I clearly and unambiguously said that they will worship his son Jesus Christ. Yes, I did. And I'm certain that I did NOT say that these Jews would look to the animal sacrifices to be made right with God. I'm sure I didn't say THAT. You are reading a lot into what I said. And you are rehearsing all your old arguments. You didn't respond to what I said here.

Ezekiel's prophesy is to "the whole house of Israel"...the Israel of God, a spiritual people, not an ethnic people.

You keep saying that but it isn't true, it's not in the text, and it doesn't make any sense. There is NO sense in which the spiritual people of God are sitting in exile in a far away country telling God that they are cut off from the promises of God. What an absurd idea. Do you think about what you say before you say it? Just asking.

Abraham lived as a stranger and pilgrim on the earth. He NEVER possessed the land of promise, and he was never seeking to possess literal land. Abraham's faith, like all those of faith found in Heb 11 looked for a home eternal in heaven, a city that has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Jesus says that the meek shall inherit the earth, and Jesus is talking about people like Abraham. The reason why Abraham lived like a stranger in the land that God gave him was because Abraham was satisfied to allow God to bless him rather than taking things for himself. That's what Hebrews 11 is talking about.

This...sadly is a pipe dream! There is no longer two people, but one people in Christ! And today is the day of salvation through the One Sacrifice; Christ. If one thinks that salvation will be available after Christ comes again...well lets just say I understand very well why "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth".

Here again you are putting words in my mouth. I did not say that there were two people in Christ. I did not say that salvation wasn't available today. In fact, I think I made it very clear that anyone, Jew or Gentile can seek the Lord and accept Christ Jesus as savior. And I thought I was clear to state that the return of the mass conversion of the Jews living in the land would take place in this age. You really seem to be having a hard time with this concept.

But what promises of God are we asked to believe will be fulfilled in the future but will be of no consquence whatsoever to us?

I thought I just spent an entire page of text and half the morning explaining this to you.

God's promise is to "the whole house of Israel"...yet your doctrine tells us that does not mean every ethnic Jew, but only a very limited number of Jews alive when Christ comes.

Yes, I didn't think this concept was that difficult to understand.

Of course the promise was blessings that would come unto ALL those who have the same faith as David. Knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne. "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." Notice David had great faith knowing the promise of God was not limited to only a few, but rather to all who believe Christ.

I'm with Mark Edward on this. I think I am going to stop responding to people who don't seem to read what I just wrote. Again, I think I made it quite clear that God intends to circumcise the hearts of these people and that they would believe in Jesus Christ. I think we can assume that folks with a circumcised heart, believing in Jesus Christ have the faith of David.

This is not reading biblical prophesy...this is reading the works of fiction! In essence you teach there are two ways to appropriate the promise of salvation...by grace through faith or by grace through obedience to abominable, discarded Levitical laws??? Sad thing is that obedience to the law never justified any man, and never will.

Again, God is going to forgive their sins. Perhaps you didn't know that God forgives the sins of those who repent, which these folks will do. The fact that God will require them to reestablish the Levitical priesthood and to keep the animal sacrifices has nothing to do with earning salvation. I thought this was clear from my previous post.

NO..actually the book of Hebrews makes it abundantly clear the sacrificial system was done away through the sacrifice of Christ. Just because unbelieving Jews failed to recognize this fact does not make it any less a FACT!

We can talk about this if you want, but I think you misread the book of Hebrews. First of all, he doesn't argue that the sacrifices were inadequate for the expiation of sins. Rather, he argues that the sacrifices raised consciouness of sins, but was inadequate to give a person the confidence that his sins were actually forgiven.

But here again, I believe you missed what I said in my previous post several times I think. These Jews will believe in Jesus Christ and they will accept him as personal savior and they will accept that his sacrifice is efficient and effictive for the forgiveness of sins. They are NOT doing the sacrifices in order to get saved or to seek God's forgiveness. They will already have God's forgiveness, already affirm that Jesus is the Christ and that his sacrifice was sufficient for the forgiveness of sins. These folks are going to practice the sacrifices because, first of all, the Levitial priests have no inheritance in the land. Second, the sacrifices were part of the original agreement God made with Israel. They are keeping all of his laws and ordinances, not to gain God's favor, but to play a role in God's plan to restore his holy name.

And after His death, His disciples understood the Old was gone FOREVER, never to return, and the fact they continued to partake of the passover was to never forget what God had done for His chosen people when He freed them from bondage. But Christian Jews also partook of the new celebration in rememberance of what Christ had done for them by His sacrificial death when they drank the communion of the blood of Christ, and brake bread in the communion of the body of Christ. It was after His death that the Spirit brought them rememberance of all that Christ had taught them to observe and do.

I don't think you understand that the so-called communion is not a Jewish thing at all, but something that Paul instituted for the Corinthian church and as far as I know, this is as far as it got. When Jesus instructed his disciples to "do this in rememberance of me" he wasn't talking about Christian communion, he was talking about the Jewish Passover.

You just don't get it! The sacrifices were pointing to the true sacrifice of Christ! To say the signs and symbols are coming back is to say the true sacrifice by the blood of Christ could not take away sin.

I don't think this follows at all. Again, if you celebrate the communion, you must realize that you are remembering the sacrifice that Christ made on the cross. To remember the cross isn't the same thing as saying the cross never happened. This is absurd. We remember an event because it DID happen. And to celebrate an event is to acknowledge that it happened and we like that it happened. It's absurd to say that the sacrifices pointed to the true sacrifice and that doing the sacrifices negates it.

A return to the old that cannot purge our sins means that Christ would have to be made a spectacle for them a second time if they will be saved. To return to the old means that you have "trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace."

You really aren't getting the picture here. The only way that returning to the sacrifices makes a spectical of Christ is if one has decided that the sacrifices DON'T point to what Jesus did on the cross. But if one understands that the sacrifices point to what happened on the cross, then keeping the sacrifices honors the cross and cause those who participate in them to remember what happened that day.

The author of Hebrews is writing to folks who are thinking that the death of Jesus did not expiate sins. And so the author of Hebrews argues that to return to the animal sacrifices under this view, would be fatal to one's eternal destiny. When God reinstitutes the sacrifices, however, these believers will already understand that Jesus sacrificed his life for the forgiveness of sins. If one knows this and believes it, then the animal sacrifices are not INSTEAD of Christ, but IN VIEW of Christ. Big difference.

Christ is that Man! And He is NOW seated on the throne of David FOREVER!

No, as the scriptures point out, Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the father on high. David's throne is on earth, not in heaven. This is why we pray, "may your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." If Christ was ruling on earth, we would pray instead, "Thank God your will is being done on earth."

Where can I find it is God's purpose to restore His holy name in Scripture?

In Ezekiel 36, the previous chapter to Ezekiel 37.

[Firstfruits]

When will David reign on his throne on earth, when will he be redeemed from the grave?

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

Firstfruits

[RogerW]

I'm not entirely certain what passages BroRog has in mind here, but Ezekiel 36 may be a good place to look, among other places as well.

How is Ezekiel 36 showing that God's name needs to be restored? Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you and Rog are implying when you say God must "restore" His name? Do you think that because the nation profaned His name among the heathen that God needs to vindicate Himself in some manner to show His worth? Are you suggesting perhaps God erred in choosing this disobedient, rebellious, hard-hearted lot of Hebrews, so now He needs to find a way to restore Himself before all the world?

I question whether you understand what God is saying when He says "I will sanctify my great name", "when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes." God is using their disobedience and rebellious hearts so He will be regarded as the Holy One in heathen Gentile nations, for He will be seen as righteous in His dealings with them. Remember Ro 11 where we read, "God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear"..."through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy."???

Eze*20:41 I will accept you with your sweet savour, when I bring you out from the people, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you before the heathen.

Sanctified - to be set apart as the Holy One

Eze*28:22 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Zidon; and I will be glorified in the midst of thee: and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall have executed judgments in her, and shall be sanctified in her.

The heathen will know God and be the Holy One among them through the hard hearted disobedient nation.

Ro*2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

The Gentile heathen are witnesses to how "these people" (Jews) have profaned the name of God. In profaning the name of God, the heathen looked upon them, not God, as more vile and worthless then the enemies that oppressed and imprisoned them. And how does God wipe away this profaning of His name? By extending His grace and mercy to all the nations of the world. His name doesn't need to be restored...because His name is Holy!

[BroRog]

How is Ezekiel 36 showing that God's name needs to be restored? Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you and Rog are implying when you say God must "restore" His name? Do you think that because the nation profaned His name among the heathen that God needs to vindicate Himself in some manner to show His worth? Are you suggesting perhaps God erred in choosing this disobedient, rebellious, hard-hearted lot of Hebrews, so now He needs to find a way to restore Himself before all the world?

God is not saying that the Jews profaned the name of God while living among the Gentiles. It's not as if the Jews were sitting around having beers with their Gentile buddies lying about God, cursing God, and saying blasphemous things about him. God isn't saying that he needs to restore his name because he allowed these disobedient rebellious people to hang out with people from other nations and while they lived among them, they cursed God up one side and down the other. That's not it at all.

In order to understand the issue, we need to understand that people in ancient days believed that each piece of real estate in the world, each region, or each country was ruled over by a local God. Each people group, living in a particular area of land, was ruled by the local god of that area. So, for instance, we read in the book of Judges that the Philistines were able to capture Samson and take him prisoner. The Philistines attributed their success to their god Dagon.

Now the lords of the Philistines assembled to offer a great sacrifice to Dagon their god, and to rejoice, for they said, "Our god has given Samson our enemy into our hands." When the people saw him, they praised their god, for they said, "Our god has given our enemy into our hands, Even the destroyer of our country, Who has slain many of us." Judges 16:23-24

Notice how the Philistines interpreted the situation. According to their interpretation of the events, it was Dagon that defeated Yahweh such that Dagon was able to give Samson into their hands. The truth was, Yahweh allowed Samson to be taken captive since Samson allowed a woman to cut his hair. But regardless of the truth, the Philistines took this to be a great victory for Dagon -- the local god of the Philistines. And at that moment, the Philistines were allowed to believe a lie about both Dagon and Yahweh. The idea that Dagon was stronger and able to defeat Yahweh is a blaspheme of Yahweh, a lie believed on by the Philistines.

Whenever God allowed his people to be defeated in battle, or when he allowed his people to be taken captive, the surrounding nations interpreted this in terms of Yahweh's relative strength. When the Egyptians took the sons of Jacob captive, it was understood by the Egyptian people that the Egyptian gods were stronger and more powerful than Yahweh. When God allowed the Assyrians to take the Northern Ten Tribes captive, it was understood by the Assyrians and the other surrounding nations that the Assyrian gods were stronger and more powerful than Yahweh. And when God allowed the Babylonians to take the Southern Tribes captive, it was understood by the Babylonian people and the other surrounding nations that the Babylonian gods were more powerful and stronger than Yahweh. For instance, when the Assyrians took Israel captive they bragged against Yahweh as it is written in Isaiah.

For thus says the Lord, "You were sold for nothing and you will be redeemed without money." For thus says the Lord God, "My people went down at the first into Egypt to reside there; then the Assyrian oppressed them without cause. "Now therefore, what do I have here," declares the Lord, "seeing that My people have been taken away without cause?" [Again] the Lord declares, "Those who rule over them howl, and My name is continually blasphemed all day long. Therefore My people shall know My name; therefore in that day I am the one who is speaking, `Here I am.' " Isaiah 52:3-6

Notice that it isn't the sons of Israel that has blasphemed but the Assyrians are the ones who blaspheme the name of God in front of the sons of Israel. The content of their lies is the Assyrian claim that Yahweh wasn't strong enough to defeat the Assyrian gods and keep them from taking the sons of Israel captive. It's a lie that Yahweh wasn't strong enough, but from the Assyrian's point of view, he wasn't.

In Ezekiel 36, God reminds the nation that because of their disobedience, he allowed the surrounding nations to appropriate and steal their land and take them captive. And when this happened, these surrounding nations bragged against God saying,

Thus says the Lord God, "Because the enemy has spoken against you, 'Aha!' and, 'The everlasting heights have become our possession,' therefore prophesy and say, 'Thus says the Lord God, "For good reason they have made you desolate and crushed you from every side, that you would become a possession of the rest of the nations and you have been taken up in the talk and the whispering of the people." ' " Ezekiel 36:2-3

and again

Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, "Son of man, when the house of Israel was living in their own land, they defiled it by their ways and their deeds; their way before Me was like the uncleanness of a woman in her impurity. "Therefore I poured out My wrath on them for the blood which they had shed on the land, because they had defiled it with their idols. "Also I scattered them among the nations and they were dispersed throughout the lands. According to their ways and their deeds I judged them. "When they came to the nations where they went, they profaned My holy name, because it was said of them, `These are the people of the Lord; yet they have come out of His land.' Ezekiel 36:16-20

And that is the lie; that is the blaspheme. The lie the nations told to themselves was, "Yahweh wasn't strong enough to protect his people from our gods. These people belong to Yahweh and yet, here they are in possession of our god." From the point of view of the surrounding nations, the local god of Palestine known as Yahweh wasn't strong enough to keep his people, bless them materially, or defeat his enemies in battle. The other gods in the surrounding regions were able to take from Yahweh whatever they wanted. This was a lie; but from the point of view of the surrounding nations, they had a point. Yahweh was a two-bit second rate god.

At some point God is going to say, "Okay, I have had enough of these lies and false accusations about me. I'm going to prove that I am God almighty and stronger than all the other gods around. I'm going to set the record straight with regard to all those times that I allowed my people to be taken captive. The nations are going to realize that it wasn't their gods that defeated me back then, it was my choice. And how am I going to prove it? I'm going to reenact those times again. This time my people will keep my ordinances and statutes, and when the surrounding nations come against them, I will defeat them. As it is written, "Then the nations will know that I am the Lord," declares the Lord God, "when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight."

Did you catch that? In order for God to restore his name, he has to defeat the nations "in their sight." That is, not only will God defeat the other nations, but he will do so while Israel watches. He is going to gather Israel to the land, clean them up, cause them to finally be a holy nation and they he will bring the surrounding nations against them one more time. But this time, while Israel watches from the side lines, God is going to supernaturally defeat Israel's enemies. And in this way, God is going to prove to the OTHER NATIONS that he is Lord.

Of course, all of us believers know that God's name is holy. We all have come to respect God, love God trust God and etc. But God wants to prove himself to his enemies and clear up the record once and for all.

[RogerW]

And that is the lie; that is the blaspheme. The lie the nations told to themselves was, "Yahweh wasn't strong enough to protect his people from our gods. These people belong to Yahweh and yet, here they are in possession of our god." From the point of view of the surrounding nations, the local god of Palestine known as Yahweh wasn't strong enough to keep his people, bless them materially, or defeat his enemies in battle. The other gods in the surrounding regions were able to take from Yahweh whatever they wanted. This was a lie; but from the point of view of the surrounding nations, they had a point. Yahweh was a two-bit second rate god.

At some point God is going to say, "Okay, I have had enough of these lies and false accusations about me. I'm going to prove that I am God almighty and stronger than all the other gods around. I'm going to set the record straight with regard to all those times that I allowed my people to be taken captive. The nations are going to realize that it wasn't their gods that defeated me back then, it was my choice. And how am I going to prove it? I'm going to reenact those times again. This time my people will keep my ordinances and statutes, and when the surrounding nations come against them, I will defeat them. As it is written, "Then the nations will know that I am the Lord," declares the Lord God, "when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight."

God is NOT going to reenact those times again, or return to the system that could only bring death. All the world will know that He is God when He pours out His wrath upon them...just as He did in Egypt when He brought His people out with a mighty hand!

Ex*7:5 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.

Ps*9:16 The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah.
Ps*9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Did you catch that? In order for God to restore his name, he has to defeat the nations "in their sight."

NO! The nations will KNOW that He is God when He executes judgment and wrath against them!

That is, not only will God defeat the other nations, but he will do so while Israel watches.

Yes! While the true Israel of God from all the nations of the earth!

He is going to gather Israel to the land, clean them up, cause them to finally be a holy nation and they he will bring the surrounding nations against them one more time. But this time, while Israel watches from the side lines, God is going to supernaturally defeat Israel's enemies. And in this way, God is going to prove to the OTHER NATIONS that he is Lord.

Not an ethnic people, nor physical land. Rather a spiritual people from every nation, and a spiritual land.

Of course, all of us believers know that God's name is holy. We all have come to respect God, love God trust God and etc. But God wants to prove himself to his enemies and clear up the record once and for all.

The way God's name will be vindicated is when they are consumed by the fire from heaven.

Ps*97:3 A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about.

Ps*106:18 And a fire was kindled in their company; the flame burned up the wicked.

Isa*30:33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.

Eze*38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
Eze*38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Eze*39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

2Th*1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th*1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th*1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Re*20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

[Firstfruits]

When will David reign on his throne on earth, when will he be redeemed from the grave?

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

Firstfruits

When do we expect to be redeemed, is it not when Jesus returns?

Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Firstfruits

[RogerW]

When will David reign on his throne on earth, when will he be redeemed from the grave?

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

Firstfruits

Spiritually David was redeemed from the grave when Christ went there and led the captives with Him to heaven (Eph 4:8-10). And David will be redeemed from the grave bodily when Christ comes again, when the last trumpet sounds, and his body will be made immortal and incorruptible (1Co 15:51-54).

[Firstfruits]

Spiritually David was redeemed from the grave when Christ went there and led the captives with Him to heaven (Eph 4:8-10). And David will be redeemed from the grave bodily when Christ comes again, when the last trumpet sounds, and his body will be made immortal and incorruptible (1Co 15:51-54).

Who is expected to reign on the throne of David, is it Jesus or David?

Firstfruits

[RogerW]

Who is expected to reign on the throne of David, is it Jesus or David?

Firstfruits

What sayeth the Scriptures?

Ps*132:11 The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.

Isa*9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa*9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Lu*1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Lu*1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Lu*1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Ac*2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Ac*2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Ac*2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Ac*2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Ac*2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Ac*2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Ac*2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Ac*2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ

[Firstfruits]

What sayeth the Seriptures?

Ps*132:11 The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.

Isa*9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa*9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Lu*1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Lu*1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Lu*1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Ac*2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Ac*2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Ac*2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Ac*2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Ac*2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Ac*2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Ac*2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Ac*2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ

Thanks RogerW,

With regards to being redeemed, what does the following mean?

2 Tim 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Is the crown of righteousness the same as the the crown of life?

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.


Firstfruits