Tell me the actual order of the chapters in Rev.?

[vinsight4u8]

Rev. 1-3 - then chapter 4 starts.
How do we know that?
Because John notes it as "after".

So with Rev. 4 John began to write out a new sequence of events.
Now, consider that between the 6th and 7th seals John saw visions.
John was shown events that did not come from the sealed book.
Now consider that Rev. 8:2 refers to a set of just seven angels.
Okay, but head back to chapter 7 and we find that all the angels were in a group. What does that mean? Why is this important to ponder?
Because John (with Rev. 8;:2) begins to lay out details (the trumpets) of a past event time that he was already shown.

Notice in Rev. 7 that "another angel" is seen by John ascending from the east. This is our key that he has seen others or so ascending from the east ahead of this remark.
This is where the trumpet story slides in. The seven angels (shown in Rev. 15) came down from heaven and sealed the 144,000. They returned to heaven - and John heard the numbers that were sealed. Being back in heaven - they get the trumpets to sound the plagues that they had left heaven with. (as shown too in Rev. 15.
Rev. 15 refers to the seven plagues being fulfilled - and John learns that after them is when men can enter the temple.
It is in Rev. 15 where John actually watched the trumpets.

In Rev. 15:1 - we find noted "seven angels".
In Rev. 8 -we find noted "the seven angels".

The set for Rev. 8 - is first introduced into Revelation - and John's experiences in Rev. 15:1.

In Rev. 8:2 they are showing up as a set again.
They are the already done their trumpet job - back to now pour out the vials of God's wrath seven angels.

Since they are the very same set of angels - John writes their trumpet story the second time he sees them as a set.

[David Taylor]

Rev. 1-3 - then chapter 4 starts.
How do we know that?
Because John notes it as "after".

So with Rev. 4 John began to write out a new sequence of events.
Now, consider that between the 6th and 7th seals John saw visions.
John was shown events that did not come from the sealed book.
Now consider that Rev. 8:2 refers to a set of just seven angels.
Okay, but head back to chapter 7 and we find that all the angels were in a group. What does that mean? Why is this important to ponder?
Because John (with Rev. 8;:2) begins to lay out details (the trumpets) of a past event time that he was already shown.

Notice in Rev. 7 that "another angel" is seen by John ascending from the east. This is our key that he has seen others or so ascending from the east ahead of this remark.
This is where the trumpet story slides in. The seven angels (shown in Rev. 15) came down from heaven and sealed the 144,000. They returned to heaven - and John heard the numbers that were sealed. Being back in heaven - they get the trumpets to sound the plagues that they had left heaven with. (as shown too in Rev. 15.
Rev. 15 refers to the seven plagues being fulfilled - and John learns that after them is when men can enter the temple.
It is in Rev. 15 where John actually watched the trumpets.

In Rev. 15:1 - we find noted "seven angels".
In Rev. 8 -we find noted "the seven angels".

The set for Rev. 8 - is first introduced into Revelation - and John's experiences in Rev. 15:1.

In Rev. 8:2 they are showing up as a set again.
They are the already done their trumpet job - back to now pour out the vials of God's wrath seven angels.

Since they are the very same set of angels - John writes their trumpet story the second time he sees them as a set.

John's use of the term 'after' from chapter to chapter doesn't mean that John is presenting things in a strict chronology, from chapter 1 to chapter 22.

John is receiving a series of visions, -- he is describing events past, present, and future....but that doesn't default to mean 'chronological'.

For example; Let's say someone (George) living in 1920 was to be given a series of visions by God of events past, present, and future involving war.

George then says after this, I saw men and women, small and frail, naked, dazed, and nearly skin and bone being liberated, freed, and rescued out of many camps and cities across Germany. (The liberation of Treblinka, Aushwitz, Dachau, etc...)

George is given a vision describing a great army being gathered in Germany, and one of which begins to attack it's neighbors. George describes horsemen and calvarys and propeller driven bi-planes with two large cross-member wings that they were using. (A vision of past events of WWI, prior to 1920)

George then says after this, I saw a metal object named 'little boy' falling from a different type plane, explode, and produce a giant cloud ascending into the heavens in fire and smoke, appearing like a mushroom. (a vision of Hiroshima)

George then says after this, I saw giant ships burning and sinking, docked near a beautiful paradise, being attacked by single-winged planes bearing a red circle on them. (a vision of Pearl Harbor)

George then says after this, I saw a great battle in the mountains, filled with snow, where many millions died; and the homelanders eventually defeated and caused the invaders to flee their county. (Hitler's invasion of Russia).


Now in hindsight, we can look at these series of visions George was given, and know that they were all true, but that they certainly were not of themselves chronological. He received one after the other, and presented each one after the other; but that doesn't force a strict chronology.

Similarly, much of Revelation's visions contain past, present, and future events....some with far-ancient histories and panoramic views across history, and some likewise into the future. We see future events described in chapter 1; and past events described in chapter 3; and future events described in chapter 7; and past events described in chapter 12; and future events described in chapter 21. So we know Revelation isn't a strict chronology....useage of terms like 'after' only join visions together, and join new topics and pictures together on the printed paper....'after' doesn't require chronology....so how is chronology determined?

Context.

If Revelation were strictly chronological throughout all of it's chapters (assuming that's what 'after' is suppose to mean), then Revelation doesn't epict one single glorious Revelation and Apocalypsis of Jesus Christ; but 7 or 8 or 9 different Returns and Appearings and Comings of the Lord.

Context tells us them, that there must be many recapitulations; and not a strict c1-c22 chronology....and we use Revelation within itself, as well as other less symbolic, imagery-driven writtings (the rest of the gospels and the other epistles that speak of Christ's Return); to help us understand Revelation's chronology and context.

Does one's view of Revelation match and harmonize with Scriptures depiction in of His Return in Matthew 13 ?
Does one's view of Revelation match and harmonize with Scriptures depiction in of His Return in Matthew 25 ?
Does one's view of Revelation match and harmonize with Scriptures depiction in of His Return in Luke 17 ?
Does one's view of Revelation match and harmonize with Scriptures depiction in of His Return in John 5?
Does one's view of Revelation match and harmonize with Scriptures depiction in of His Return in Romans 8 ?
Does one's view of Revelation match and harmonize with Scriptures depiction in of His Return in I Cor 15 ?
Does one's view of Revelation match and harmonize with Scriptures depiction in of His Return in I Thess 4-5 ?
Does one's view of Revelation match and harmonize with Scriptures depiction in of His Return in 2 Thess 2-3 ?
Does one's view of Revelation match and harmonize with Scriptures depiction in of His Return in 1 John 2-3 ?
Does one's view of Revelation match and harmonize with Scriptures depiction in of His Return in 2 Peter 3 ?
Does one's view of Revelation match and harmonize with Scriptures depiction in of His Return in Jude ?

If all of these above are true and harmonious, then one is on the right track of properly understanding the chronology and visions of Revelation; for they will harmonize not conflict with, all of these other more clear and simple descriptions and events involving the Revelation of Christ.

[John146]

One through twenty-two. I'm kidding! I know what you meant. I agree with what David said. It's pretty easy to prove that the whole thing isn't chronological since the seventh trumpet (Rev 11:15-19) doesn't precede the birth and ascension of Christ (Rev 12:4-5).

[JLM-223]

Rev. 1-3 - then chapter 4 starts.
How do we know that?
Because John notes it as "after".

So with Rev. 4 John began to write out a new sequence of events.
Now, consider that between the 6th and 7th seals John saw visions.
John was shown events that did not come from the sealed book.
Now consider that Rev. 8:2 refers to a set of just seven angels.
Okay, but head back to chapter 7 and we find that all the angels were in a group. What does that mean? Why is this important to ponder?
Because John (with Rev. 8;:2) begins to lay out details (the trumpets) of a past event time that he was already shown.

As I’m sure you know, one of the trickiest things about interpreting a book like Revelation has to do with providing a definite timeline for its fulfillment. The most logical assumption to make is to state that the chronological order is simply the order in which the text appears, and in most cases, that’s true. But, that’s not always the case, and the book of Revelation is a prime example! To me, the order of the text in Revelation is merely the order in which John received his vision of the end times and wrote it down, which is not necessarily the order in which it will be fulfilled. For example, I believe that the seven seals in and of themselves are in chronological order, as are the seven trumpets and seven vials. But this does not mean that all the seals come before all the trumpets, and that all the trumpets come before all the vials. I believe there is overlap, and that the series of seals, trumpets, and vials begin at different points but reach their conclusion at the same time: the end of the Great Tribulation.

[vinsight4u8]

So can Rev. 8:2 come ahead of Rev . 15:1?

Who seals the 144,000?

the we angels

Who are they?
Per the OT pattern - how should they be outfitted?
How about using Ezekiel chapter 9 as to in lnen - and then wouldn't this mean the seven angels noted as dressed like that (in Rev. 15)- are leaving heaven to seal the 144,000 for Rev. 7?

When they return - the cloud should soon fill the temple.
A report should be also given as to what they accomplished.

So - doesn't this again show Rev. 15 was written before Rev. 8 was?
Don't the seven angels need to come from heaven before anyone can be sealed in Rev. 7?

Why do you think it tells us in Rev. 7 as to "another angel" that ascends from the east?
Who were the others?
Why?
Were they coming from Babylon?

[vinsight4u8]

Hi JLM

Rev. 7 begins with noting a part as "after". Would this mean that John was already done revealing what the 6th seal contained?

as in now John sees visions
but they are not due to the sealed book hidden parts

Also, these visions were seen before the Lamb opened the 7th seal.
So if John saw a lot more in Rev. 7 then it at just a first glance appears- couldn't he have seen a set of seven angels - and thus, by chapter 8 call them "the seven angels"?

Do you agree that John can't be seeing that set for the first time when he wrote down Rev. 8:2?

So how about Rev. 15:1 is where that set was first seen by John?

15:1
"...seven angels..."

8:2
"...the seven angels..."

After this set has once been placed in the book of Revelation, do you think that John could, using proper grammar, ever take the "the" away and rightfully refer to them again as "seven angels"?

[vinsight4u8]

Hi JLM-223
You wrote>

For example, I believe that the seven seals in and of themselves are in chronological order, as are the seven trumpets and seven vials. But this does not mean that all the seals come before all the trumpets, and that all the trumpets come before all the vials. I believe there is overlap, and that the series of seals, trumpets, and vials begin at different points but reach their conclusion at the same time: the end of the Great Tribulation.

me
Why do you think Rev. 15:1 refers to the seven last plagues?
Doesn't this place seven plagues as not happening when the others do?

Did you see in Rev. 18 that the vials will be refilled?
Then look at what angel gets seen in Rev. 21:9.

John refers to angels as to what he saw them doing last.
So in Rev. 17:1 there is an angel seen that had one of the seven vials - but John had not seen they get refilled.

"...one of the seven angels which had the seven vials..."
Rev. 17

Rev. 18
fill to her double

Rev. 21
"...which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues."


so there will be -
the seven trumpet plagues
at the end of them = as in Rev. 11 we get the wrath of God begins
the seven vials of God's wrath
the seven vials get filled up again

21 plagues total

[vinsight4u8]

One through twenty-two. I'm kidding! I know what you meant. I agree with what David said. It's pretty easy to prove that the whole thing isn't chronological since the seventh trumpet (Rev 11:15-19) doesn't precede the birth and ascension of Christ (Rev 12:4-5).

Okay, very good! Now, looking closely at the end of Rev. 11 what should be next?
Why didn't John go into detail as to what happened with the quake and hail?
He refers to a quake and great hail - then here comes Rev. 12.

So I agree things here are way out of sequential order.
But are they also not written in the way that John witnessed them?

Agree that Rev. 12:1 comes before Rev. 15:1?
as John has begun to write about seeing signs /wonders

Rev. 12:1
"And there appeared a great wonder..."
12:3
"And there appeared another wonder..."
15:1
"And I saw another sign..."

If we let Rev. 6 come before all of this as to what John wrote - then heaven has been seen to depart -and every mountain and island have been moved.

So why say - Woe clear over in chapter 12?
What could be much worse then the things already revealed?
But what if Rev. 12 is not written when John saw it happen - as to the order of things that were shown to him?
What if it belongs in Rev. 7?
And Rev. 7 is to focus us in on part of the seals just shown to John?
Rev. 7 is not written as something the 6th seal revealed.
Rev. 7 began "after" after the telling of the 6th seal was over.

Rev. 6:12
"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal..."

Rev. 7:1
"And after these things I saw..."
We soon come to an odd part - "another angel"
John begins to refer to seeing another angel - ascending from the east yet, he has not told us about seeing any others do that?
So he can't write "another" unless a whole other story slides into this part - chapters 12,13,15.

[vinsight4u8]

Hi David Taylor

How about adding to your list>

Ezekiel chapters 7-10
Deuteronomy 32
Zechariah chapters 5-6
and the use of proper grammar

as I intend to go into these and others and show how they are linked to the end days understanding of Revelation

Do you agree that Rev. 15 is seen and written by John before he saw the 7th seal be opened?

as in Rev. 15 had to bring "seven angels" into the book of Revelation before John could see them as "the seven angels"for Rev. 8:2?

[percho]

vinsight

I believe the total book is written from the present being the Day of the Lord then written per Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
However I have not studied it enough to know this. Looks like you have. What do you think of this being correct? I also do not know how long of a period of time makes up the day of the Lord and also chapter 12 does not work as the others would.

Please tell me what you think.

[thedee]

One through twenty-two. I'm kidding! I know what you meant. I agree with what David said. It's pretty easy to prove that the whole thing isn't chronological since the seventh trumpet (Rev 11:15-19) doesn't precede the birth and ascension of Christ (Rev 12:4-5).

I had asked you in some other post of how you fit everything in as far as the order which things occur. Maybe this is a good place to post that???? I am not asking for real details but maybe how the seals, trumpets, and bowls and their timings?

[John146]

I had asked you in some other post of how you fit everything in as far as the order which things occur. Maybe this is a good place to post that???? I am not asking for real details but maybe how the seals, trumpets, and bowls and their timings?

Normally, I take the time to answer people's questions in my own words, but I'm going to cheat this time and give you a link to a web page that pretty much shows how I see it even though it's written by someone else. Here it is: http://www.ukapologetics.net/08/sevenparallel.htm

[thedee]

Normally, I take the time to answer people's questions in my own words, but I'm going to cheat this time and give you a link to a web page that pretty much shows how I see it even though it's written by someone else. Here it is: http://www.ukapologetics.net/08/sevenparallel.htm

I didn't read the entire article due to time but will get to that. I am going to be gone for about 5 days so try to get ready for that. One thing that did catch my eye was this statement in the article:

the seven bowls and seven trumpets refer to exactly the same events but from somewhat differing perspectives; Christ returns at the seventh bowl and seventh trumpet.

How can this be when we are told in scripture that the 7 bowls are the "seven last plagues" (Rev 15:1)? Also, during the trumpet judgement we are told that 1/3 of the "living creatures in the sea died" but during the Seal judgements we are told "every living creature in the sea died". This cannot be the same. I believe that the judgement of Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls are sequential. The bowl judgement being the worse. The Trumpet judgement we are told 1/3 of this and 1/3 of that... but during the Bowl judgment it is different and more extreme.

[vinsight4u8]

One thing I do with prophecy is take the last part of the message and work my way backwards through the verses to see if the things I believe it tells us are still linking smoothly to make a clearly laid out story.

I see Revelation in this basic way.

The first part - the mystery of the seven stars and the seven candlesticks.
for John's day
chapters 1-3

the next part - as for hereaffter
-the trumpets - vision as to the mystery of God
the seals - trumpets - not set for John's day
so this section is jumbled
not to be understood till the time nears?
with the 7th trumpet, the mystery of God is finished
seven thunders message sealed up
but John ate a little book before the trumpets ended
as he was to prophesy yet a part not in the mystery of God

chapters 16-22
the final part is from the little book that John ate
it was set for his day
in the time of the 6th king - as in the king that is /found in Rev. 17
this is what book contained parts that were not to be sealed

Rev. 22:18
"...the plagues that are written in this book."
v10
"...Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand."

Rev. 17:10
"And there are seven kings, five are fallen, and one is..."

So John was living during the tme of the 6th king, and that makes this section of the prophecy for his day.
time at hand
Everything written down should flow right along as to how John has written it. John wrote it in the order that he was shown the various events.

Rev. 17:18
"And the woman which thou sawest..."
Rev. 18:1
"And after these things I saw..."
Rev. 18:24
"And in her was found the blood of the prophets of the saints..."
19:1
"And after these things I saw..."
19:14
"...armies in heaven..."
19:19
"And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together...against his army."

Why did armies now become singular?
God had armies from heaven and now it hass switched to saying "army".
John saw one army go to the battle.
Rev. 20:4
"And i saw thrones, and they sat...."
Who sits?
the army of God's that went to the battle

Agree with me so far?
Okay, what I'm trying to show is that when you find "after" you are to see that a new story has begun - as in a totally new laid out sequence of events.

[vinsight4u8]

vinsight

I believe the total book is written from the present being the Day of the Lord then written per Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
However I have not studied it enough to know this. Looks like you have. What do you think of this being correct? I also do not know how long of a period of time makes up the day of the Lord and also chapter 12 does not work as the others would.

Please tell me what you think.

I too, believe that Revelation is divided into sections. Sections as to when they were to occur or will occur. The things that are written in the middle have been made into a puzzle. I believe that is because they are not to be understood tlll the end days. You mentioned Rev. 12 does not work as the others. Taking a look at the end of Rev. 11 shows me that it should link next to Rev. 16:1.
Why?
Because there is not an actual quake then or great hail on the earth. This is what happens before the seven angels begin a set of plagues. This happens to reveal how long the set of plagues will last, as in till the great hail occurs.

Here's what happens as written in the trumpet story.

Rev. 8:5
"...there were voices and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.'
no great hail part listed
v6
"And the seven angels...prepared themselves to sound."

The trumpets sound till there is the prophesied in the list - earthquake.
Rev. 11:13
"And the same hour was there a great earthquake..."
This is the hour to come when the two witnesses are foretold by an angel will rise from the dead. It will be the third woe hour - as in the time of the 7th trumpet.

So when Rev. 11 has - in verse 19
"...there were lightnings, and voices,...an earthquake, and great hail."

it means that the seven angels are about to bring a new set of plagues. This set will not only have an earthquake but also a time of great hail.

Rev. 16:1
"...pour out the vials of the wrath of God..."
v21
"And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven..."

It seems to me that the end of Rev. 11 actually links nicely to the start of Rev. 16.
Then chapters 17-22 flow one to another. But the middle part of Rev. is different. I see it as a jumbled puzzle as it was not for John's day.
Let's use Rev. 12, since you mentioned that part as not working like the others. What begins in Rev. 12? John starts to write about seeing wonders. With verse 1, he sees the first wonder in heaven.

Rev. 12:1
"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven..."
I found this odd as John has seen, up to this point, lots of stuff. In the 6th seal - heaven departed -horses came in the various seals - and yet here he writes of seeing a wonder in heaven. Okay, so John has left off writing about events that were from the sealed book. So we know that he is at least as far as Rev. 7:1.

Rev. 12:1
"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven..."
12:3
"And there appeared another wonder in heaven..."

Rev. 6:12
"...when he had opened the sixth seal..."
Rev. 7:1
"And after these things I saw....'

So John is no longer, with that verse, having us focus on the 6th seal. John has already finished telling us about what the opening of the 6th seal revealed.'

Okay, now we saw how when John saw a sign for the second time he noted it to us as seeing "another" wonder. Using this pattern, we come to Rev. 7:2.

"And I saw another angel ascending from the east..."

What other angel or angels ascended from the east?
This is where the Rev. 12 story about wonders will fit in.

Let's keep going with Rev. 12:1 again.
12:1
"...there appeared a great wonder..."
v3
"And there appeared another wonder..."
Rev. 15:1
"And I saw another sign in heaven..."

These various chapters slide into Rev. 7, and give us the story that is missing between verse 1 and verse 2.