Original sin?

[Abiding]

Is it possible man is born with original sin, and spiritually dead? Scripture teaches Adam lost his original righteousness, and his fallen nature is passed onto all his posterity. Born with this original sin, we are all guilty: We have the guilt of his first sin, we do not have the original righteousness Adam was created with, which was lost at the fall, our whole nature is corrupted. This is all inherited from Adam.

This inherited corruption which everyone is born with is called original sin. It flows to all of us from our first parents, the origin of our race. It is distinguished from actual sin, but is the origin all actual sin.

According to God Adam died when he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." Gen 2:17.

To show what this original sin of eating the forbidden fruit caused, we have to understand what died in Adam? He died spiritually, scripture does not teach he was sick spiritually, but, he died.


How can this be proved or disproved from scripture? How did God create man, what are the parts of man, and what died? What was inherited by all Adam's posterity?

[RogerW]

Is it possible man is born with original sin, and spiritually dead? Scripture teaches Adam lost his original righteousness, and his fallen nature is passed onto all his posterity. Born with this original sin, we are all guilty: We have the guilt of his first sin, we do not have the original righteousness Adam was created with, which was lost at the fall, our whole nature is corrupted. This is all inherited from Adam.

This inherited corruption which everyone is born with is called original sin. It flows to all of us from our first parents, the origin of our race. It is distinguished from actual sin, but is the origin all actual sin.

According to God Adam died when he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." Gen 2:17.

To show what this original sin of eating the forbidden fruit caused, we have to understand what died in Adam? He died spiritually, scripture does not teach he was sick spiritually, but, he died.


How can this be proved or disproved from scripture? How did God create man, what are the parts of man, and what died? What was inherited by all Adam's posterity?

Good questions abiding!

Since every human is born into this world under the condemnation of death, it is apparent we inherited something from our first parents, otherwise why are we too condemned to death before we commit sin? The Scriptures tell us "by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin"...but death by sin was not confined to him alone, for we also read "and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." If every human does not share in the same original guilt and sin through birth, why is every human born condemned to die?

Blessings,
RW

[Butch5]

Is it possible man is born with original sin, and spiritually dead? Scripture teaches Adam lost his original righteousness, and his fallen nature is passed onto all his posterity. Born with this original sin, we are all guilty: We have the guilt of his first sin, we do not have the original righteousness Adam was created with, which was lost at the fall, our whole nature is corrupted. This is all inherited from Adam.

This inherited corruption which everyone is born with is called original sin. It flows to all of us from our first parents, the origin of our race. It is distinguished from actual sin, but is the origin all actual sin.

According to God Adam died when he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." Gen 2:17.

To show what this original sin of eating the forbidden fruit caused, we have to understand what died in Adam? He died spiritually, scripture does not teach he was sick spiritually, but, he died.


How can this be proved or disproved from scripture? How did God create man, what are the parts of man, and what died? What was inherited by all Adam's posterity?

We've already discussed this. What changed in Adam other than his acquiring the knowledge of good and evil? Scripture doesn't speak of any change in Adam. When God finished the creation He said it was very good. Adam had the ability to sin when the creation was very good.

This idea of original sin doesn't come from the Bible, it comes from people trying to force the Scriptures into man made theological systems.

The Bible also does not speak of anyone being spiritually dead, this again is a man made dogma created to support a theological system. Please provide a single verse of Scripture that states that man is spiritually dead.

Also, concerning what God said to Adam, did God say anything about dying spiritually??? No, He didn't. That is inferred from the passage to again support a theological dogma. Peter makes it clear when he quotes the Psalm. He says that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day. This explains God's statement that Adam would die when he ate the fruit. Adam dies just before the thousand years were up.

[percho]

We've already discussed this. What changed in Adam other than his acquiring the knowledge of good and evil? Scripture doesn't speak of any change in Adam. When God finished the creation He said it was very good. Adam had the ability to sin when the creation was very good.

This idea of original sin doesn't come from the Bible, it comes from people trying to force the Scriptures into man made theological systems.

The Bible also does not speak of anyone being spiritually dead, this again is a man made dogma created to support a theological system. Please provide a single verse of Scripture that states that man is spiritually dead.

Also, concerning what God said to Adam, did God say anything about dying spiritually??? No, He didn't. That is inferred from the passage to again support a theological dogma. Peter makes it clear when he quotes the Psalm. He says that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day. This explains God's statement that Adam would die when he ate the fruit. Adam dies just before the thousand years were up.

I agree with you Butch5. I can't find this anywhere either. "original righteousness"

Man was created a flesh and blood, corruptible human being. This is a statement of fact before he was even created. The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Here is what did and did not take place.

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

I really like what you said about spiritual death and original sin and I also do not think man fell from anything.

[Abiding]

We've already discussed this.

Actually we discussed this in a small part.

What changed in Adam other than his acquiring the knowledge of good and evil? Scripture doesn't speak of any change in Adam.

Well, tell me then what did Gos mean when he said you will surely die? How does death relate to knowing good and evil? Adam didn't physically die that day on the fall, so what died?

When God finished the creation He said it was very good. Adam had the ability to sin when the creation was very good.

That don't have anything to do with the questions. And yes, Adam did have the ability to sin, though he had no reason nor motive.

This idea of original sin doesn't come from the Bible, it comes from people trying to force the Scriptures into man made theological systems.

Just because you say so does not make your statement true.

The Bible also does not speak of anyone being spiritually dead, this again is a man made dogma created to support a theological system. Please provide a single verse of Scripture that states that man is spiritually dead.

James 1:14-16. James 5:19-20. here's two.

Also, concerning what God said to Adam, did God say anything about dying spiritually???

Butch, it is quite obvious he didn't die physically.

No, He didn't.

In which way did he die then? Don't forget, God said, in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.

That is inferred from the passage to again support a theological dogma.

Prove otherwise.

Peter makes it clear when he quotes the Psalm. He says that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day. This explains God's statement that Adam would die when he ate the fruit. Adam dies just before the thousand years were up.

You think so? Lets have a look, lets go right to the source. Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it passes by, Or as a watch in the night. This is teaching God is sovereign in His dominion over mankind, and unsearchable His duration. But weak and short lived are men. This is speaking about our eternal Almighty God. It does not help your case in the least.

[Vhayes]

Is it possible man is born with original sin, and spiritually dead? Scripture teaches Adam lost his original righteousness, and his fallen nature is passed onto all his posterity. Born with this original sin, we are all guilty: We have the guilt of his first sin, we do not have the original righteousness Adam was created with, which was lost at the fall, our whole nature is corrupted. This is all inherited from Adam.

This inherited corruption which everyone is born with is called original sin. It flows to all of us from our first parents, the origin of our race. It is distinguished from actual sin, but is the origin all actual sin.

According to God Adam died when he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." Gen 2:17.

To show what this original sin of eating the forbidden fruit caused, we have to understand what died in Adam? He died spiritually, scripture does not teach he was sick spiritually, but, he died.


How can this be proved or disproved from scripture? How did God create man, what are the parts of man, and what died? What was inherited by all Adam's posterity?

Jesus told Nicodemus that we (as in humans) must be born again of the spirit. If Adam was alive spiritually, and God told him, "dying you shall die" - I would say Adam died spiritually the nano-second he disobeyed God and ate and then died physically on down the road.

Not sure if that makes sense or not...

[Abiding]

Jesus told Nicodemus that we (as in humans) must be born again of the spirit. If Adam was alive spiritually, and God told him, "dying you shall die" - I would say Adam died spiritually the nano-second he disobeyed God and ate and then died physically on down the road.

Not sure if that makes sense or not...

Yes, that makes sence to me, I believe you hit the nail right on th head.

[dagar]

Jesus told Nicodemus that we (as in humans) must be born again of the spirit. If Adam was alive spiritually, and God told him, "dying you shall die" - I would say Adam died spiritually the nano-second he disobeyed God and ate and then died physically on down the road.

Not sure if that makes sense or not...

define "alive spiritually". That could be a very big IF.

[dagar]

Jesus told Nicodemus that we (as in humans) must be born again of the spirit. If Adam was alive spiritually, and God told him, "dying you shall die" - I would say Adam died spiritually the nano-second he disobeyed God and ate and then died physically on down the road.

Not sure if that makes sense or not...

Isn't that God telling Adam he was dying? Why doesn't it say if you eat that you shall die? Why does it say dying you shall die?

[Vhayes]

define "alive spiritually". That could be a very big IF.

Adam was in fellowship with God. What is born of the flesh is flesh, what is born of the spirit is spirit.

[dagar]

Adam was in fellowship with God. What is born of the flesh is flesh, what is born of the spirit is spirit.

What does 1Cor 15 say Adam was?
Abraham was in fellowship. Was he spiritually alive? What about Cain, Abel, Enoch, Noah? Were they spiritually alive or spiritually dead?

[Vhayes]

What does 1Cor 15 say Adam was?
Abraham was in fellowship. Was he spiritually alive? What about Cain, Abel, Enoch, Noah? Were they spiritually alive or spiritually dead?

Born dead - made alive by faith in the future King and Messiah.

[dagar]

Adam was "Born dead" according to 1Cor 15?

[Vhayes]

No - Adam was unique in that he was fashioned by God's own hand. He and Eve were the only creations born into this world spiritually alive. All others believed God and it was counted to them as righteousness.

[Butch5]

Well, tell me then what did Gos mean when he said you will surely die? How does death relate to knowing good and evil? Adam didn't physically die that day on the fall, so what died?

It was physical death. There is absolutely nothing said about spiritual death, so on what basis can anyone make the claim that Adam died spiritually. To say that is purely assumption.

Just because you say so does not make your statement true.

That's correct, however, I am not relying on the fact that I said it. There is nothing in Scripture that teaches it. Can you provide Scripture that shows all mankind bears the guilt of Adam's sin?

James 1:14-16. James 5:19-20. here's two.

I'm sorry friend but neither of these passages speaks of spiritual death. However, let me ask you since you seem to have Calvinistic leanings, do you believe that salvation cannot be lost? If so, I find it interesting that you would post this passage in James 5. In this passage James is speaking to believers, if you believe OSAS, then it would seem that you must interpret this passage in James as physical death since the Calvinist believes salvation cannot lost. If you interpret it as Spiritual then it would prove that the believer can be lost and therefore OSAS cannot be true.

Butch, it is quite obvious he didn't die physically.

No, it's not my friend.

In which way did he die then? Don't forget, God said, in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.

I've explained it. We cannot define the terms the Bible uses we must let the Bible define it's own terms. David and Peter both tell us how God reckons time, David in the Psalms and Peter when explaining the delay in the Lords return. They both say that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years. It's no a coincidence that Adam lived just short of 1000 years.

This is perfect example of why we need to let the Bible define the terms. I have given a perfectly acceptable reconciliation of this passage, however, many Christians try to impose spiritual death on the passage, something that it does not say. Something that Scripture does not speak of. From there they go one to create other doctrines based on this forced and inferred interpretation. Which do you think is more likely correct, something that is inferred form Scripture or something that is explicitly stated outright?

Prove otherwise.

What is there to prove? It is not stated in the passage. If it is not stated then the idea must be inferred.

You think so? Lets have a look, lets go right to the source. Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it passes by, Or as a watch in the night. This is teaching God is sovereign in His dominion over mankind, and unsearchable His duration. But weak and short lived are men. This is speaking about our eternal Almighty God. It does not help your case in the least.

On the contrary, it shows how God reckons time. Peter explains how god reckons time also. You say it doesn't help my case. My friend it is stated outright in Scripture, everything you've said about Adam being spiritually dead have been inferred. Nothing at all stated outright. I think it makes my case much, much, stronger.