Salvation

[Butch5]

How would you explain this?

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Firstfruits

Hi FF,

Paul wrote that and it was to Christians not unbelievers. He wasn't preaching the gospel to the lost, he was addressing Christians in the church at Rome.

[mailmandan]

How would you explain this?

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Firstfruits

Amen FF! We must believe in our heart that God has raised Him from the dead. That is included in the gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:3,4) that we must believe in order to be saved. (Romans 1:16)

[BroRog]

I like many of you have been a Christian for along time taking whatever I have been told as the Gospel sort of to speak. However lately I had a friend who has become a Universal Salvation person. We talk about religion and scripture in a calm and non argumentative way. There basis of course is on the Gospels of Paul (that salvation "for all" is through faith in Jesus and that Jesus died for our sins which in turned washed away original sin) Which I have always taking Paul's gospels as the gospel because I was told so kind of thing. So I started to do my own research and I and even know I knew this in the back of my head I never gave it much thought that Paul never even knew Jesus. So I said there can't be that much difference in Paul's gospels and the synoptic gospels messages. They are both ones of morality of course. But one thing I can not find and I am needing help because I have found this to be disturbing is that where did Jesus himself say that his death and resurrection was the only way to salvation. It seems Jesus's message is love and peace. I know there are plenty of verses that say God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. But where does it say he sent Jesus to die on the cross for our salvation. I know Paul preaches this but where does Jesus say this. Now I know some will say his sermons were only for the jews which I contest and that Paul's was for the gentiles(interesting that Paul equals himself with Jesus in this manner as if they were splitting the duty to preach the word of God), but where does Jesus say my death and resurrection is your way to salvation. I know he says through Me a lot and belief in Me a lot. I am looking for a quote from Jesus not how Paul talks about Jesus in the third person. I know that was kind of long but i wanted to be clear not to quote something from Paul but from Jesus himself.

I would like to add to the list, Jesus' statements like "I am the way, the truth and the life." By this I believe he was saying, as David Taylor points out, that Jesus claimed exclusivity. One of the most tender and poignant moments in the Gospels is when Jesus speaks to his friends Mary and Martha about the death of Lazarus. In that account he says,

John 11:23 Jesus ^said to her, "Your brother will rise again." 24 Martha ^said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." 25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" 27 She ^said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, [even] He who comes into the world."

[RollTide21]

How would you explain this?

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Firstfruits

The answer is all of the above.

The Holy Spirit testifies to the Truth of Christ in His Fullness: His Death and Resurrection, His preaching of the Kingdom on Earth, His claim as the Son of God, His claim to be the Way, etc.

[MoreMercy]

The --->opportunity<--- for salvation is indeed universal now, since Christ's work done.

But, also: "Many are called but few chosen" (and for good reasons).

Only lovers of lies will believe and/or share such things as "universal salvation" with out also sharing discipleship to Christ's teachings and examples being practiced in our daily living.

Sadly, this person although you may like or love them and you probably are a very good friend to him/her but, they are not a good friend to you right now.


Father bless, and have mercy on us.

[John 8:32]

How would you explain this?

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Firstfruits

Just something to think about, all the truth on a particular subject is not found in one place...

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Mat 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

So if I say the magic words and believe that is all it takes?

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

[John 8:32]

Sining wilfully is the key here. God forgives sin, but only sin that is repented of.

[mailmandan]

Sining wilfully is the key here. God forgives sin, but only sin that is repented of.

Whenever you sin, do you exercise your will or do you accidently fall into a pit called sin? To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual. The sin is rejecting Christ deliberately after you have received the "knowledge" of the truth, which is not the same as receiving and accepting the truth. Though the knowledge was not defective or incomplete, the application of the knowledge was certainly flawed. Do we repent of our sins at conversion? Must we stop sinning altogether to remain forgiven? Romans 10:9 clearly states that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. It does not say that you might possibly be saved.

[John 8:32]

Whenever you sin, do you exercise your will or do you accidently fall into a pit called sin? To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual. The sin is rejecting Christ deliberately after you have received the "knowledge" of the truth, which is not the same as receiving and accepting the truth. Though the knowledge was not defective or incomplete, the application of the knowledge was certainly flawed. Do we repent of our sins at conversion? Must we stop sinning altogether to remain forgiven?

Slipping and falling is sin, but repentance and asking forgiveness is the key. Wilfull sinning, telling God, yes, I know you say to do things your way, to live by your laws, but I want to do what I want to do. To continue in a sin, knowing better and refusing to repent.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Sinning wilfully becomes the unpardonable sin, there is no expiation for sin we refuse to repent of.

[mailmandan]

Slipping and falling is sin, but repentance and asking forgiveness is the key. Wilfull sinning, telling God, yes, I know you say to do things your way, to live by your laws, but I want to do what I want to do. To continue in a sin, knowing better and refusing to repent.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Sinning wilfully becomes the unpardonable sin, there is no expiation for sin we refuse to repent of.

What particular sin would that be? Do saved people commit the unpardonable sin? In regards to the unpardonable sin, in Matthew 12:31-32, the Pharisees, having witnessed irrefutable proof that Jesus was working miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit, claimed instead that the Lord cast out demons by “Beelzebub” (Matthew 12:24).

The state of continued unbelief is unpardonable. There is no pardon for a person who dies in unbelief (John 3:18; John 3:36; Hebrews 4:2-6; Hebrews 10:39). Continual rejection of the Holy Spirit’s promptings to believe (trust) in Jesus Christ for salvation is unpardonable.

[John 8:32]

What particular sin would that be? Do saved people commit the unpardonable sin? In regards to the unpardonable sin, in Matthew 12:31-32, the Pharisees, having witnessed irrefutable proof that Jesus was working miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit, claimed instead that the Lord cast out demons by “Beelzebub” (Matthew 12:24).

The state of continued unbelief is unpardonable. There is no pardon for a person who dies in unbelief (John 3:18; John 3:36; Hebrews 4:2-6; Hebrews 10:39). Continual rejection of the Holy Spirit’s promptings to believe (trust) in Jesus Christ for salvation is unpardonable.

It starts with what is sin? The Bible definition for sin...

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Continuing in any sin and refusing to repent.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[mailmandan]

It starts with what is sin? The Bible definition for sin...

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Continuing in any sin and refusing to repent.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Sin is the transgression of the law.

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. (1 John 3:4-10)

So are you suggesting that there are people who are born again (saved) that continue in sin (practice sin), refuse to repent and by doing so commit the unpardonable sin? Not according to 1 John 3:9. Unbelief is unpardonable and if you refuse to place your faith in Christ alone for salvation, then you have refused to repent and will remain in unbelief (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 11:17,18; Acts 20:21; 2 Timothy 2:25).

Acts 2:38 is not admonishing those who are born of God to repent of certain sins that they are continuing in after conversion. Repentance in Acts 2:38 results in conversion as it does in Acts 3:19 – Repent, therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out. Repentance in salvation involves a change of mind about our sinful position and need for Christ to save us and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ alone for salvation. Two sides to the same experience. The Greek word for repentance (metanoia) means to change one’s mind. But to change one’s mind about what? About sin, about one’s adequacy to save himself, about Christ as the only way of salvation. I have heard certain preachers say, "If you want to be saved, repent of your sins, turn from your sins." If turning from your sins means to stop sinning, then people can only be saved if they stop sinning. And it is unlikely that anyone has ever been saved, since we don't know anyone who has ever completely stopped sinning.

[Ta-An]

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. " John 14:6

.

[John 8:32]

Sin is the transgression of the law.

Acts 2:38 is not admonishing those who are born of God to repent of certain sins that they are continuing in after conversion. Repentance in Acts 2:38 results in conversion as it does in Acts 3:19 – Repent, therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out. Repentance in salvation involves a change of mind about our sinful position and need for Christ to save us and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ alone for salvation. Two sides to the same experience. The Greek word for repentance (metanoia) means to change one’s mind. But to change one’s mind about what? About sin, about one’s adequacy to save himself, about Christ as the only way of salvation. I have heard certain preachers say, "If you want to be saved, repent of your sins, turn from your sins." If turning from your sins means to stop sinning, then people can only be saved if they stop sinning. And it is unlikely that anyone has ever been saved, since we don't know anyone who has ever completely stopped sinning.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Lam 3:22 It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
Lam 3:23 They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

And again, wilfully, spitting in God's eye in defiance. How many times did Jesus tell us to forgive? Will He not go far and above what we are able? Christ did put a condition on receiving forgiveness...



at 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Mat 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.
Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

[mailmandan]

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Lam 3:22 It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
Lam 3:23 They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

And again, wilfully, spitting in God's eye in defiance. How many times did Jesus tell us to forgive? Will He not go far and above what we are able? Christ did put a condition on receiving forgiveness...



at 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Mat 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.
Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

So I guess that you are going to completely ignore 1 John 3:9? No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Are you determined to believe that there will be those who are born of God that will practice sin or willfully sin and lose their salvation in contradiction to 1 John 3:9? To sin willfully (Hebrews 10:26) in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, a matter of practice. Rejection of Christ is in view here in Hebrews 10, not failing to forgive others. Notice the references to "trampled the Son of God underfoot" and "the blood of the new covenent." (Hebrews 10:29)

So is our eternal destiny based on our best efforts to forgive other people (works) or on our faith in Christ? The Bible is clear that God pardons sin by His grace based on Christ’s finished work of redemption, not on man’s actions "works" (Romans 3:24; 4:5; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9). Notice that Acts 10:43 clearly states, whosoever believes in Him "apart from additions or modifications" shall receive forgiveness of sins." Acts 13:39 clearly states that by Him everyone who believes "apart from additions or modifications" is justified from all things... So now you are trying to use Matthew 18:35 and Matthew 6:14,15 to teach otherwise? So are people who refuse to forgive men their trespasses saved or lost? Does "delivered to the tormentors" equate to hell or severe discipline? Is this forgiveness from the Father in relation to our eternal salvation or our daily fellowship with God? There are various interpretations to these passages of Scripture, but Scripture must harmonize with other Scripture or else we have a contradiction.

So is anyone who refuses to forgive others demonstrating that they have not truly received Christ's forgiveness themselves? Matthew 6:14-15, according to this view, proclaims that anyone who harbors unforgiveness against others has not truly experienced God's forgiveness. Notice that "hypocrites" are mentioned prior to and just after these verses in the same chapter. Both interpretations strongly deny that forgiveness in regards to receiving salvation is dependent on our best efforts to forgive others. Whether Matthew 6:14-15 is speaking of "relational forgiveness," or whether it is a declaration that unforgiveness is the mark of an unbeliever, the core truth is the same. So your interpretation that not forgiving others is what the author of Hebrews had in mind when he mentioned "willfully sin" in Hebrews 10:26 and your interpretation that forgiving others is an additional requirement to remain saved is in contradiction to (Romans 3:24; 4:5; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 John 3:9) and is inconclusive.