Was the Law given by God to the Israelites meant to punish them?

[Fenris]

First five... love God with all your heart, soul and mind... Last five... your neighbor.

I don't see it. Sabbath observance = "love of God"?

Legalistically you are absolutely correct. But seriously... looking beyond the "I am not a farmer" can you not see how even that has application to you and loving your neighbor? Like I said... it isn't that the Law is bad. It isn't. It was set apart for God thus holy. It is what made Israel that special people. Many of the Laws are much like the proverbs... they are full of wisdom. There are some though... mixed material, boiling the kid in the mothers milk... etc (posted a bunch of them) that really are simply useless in that regard.

You're meandering. My point is, we don't bring sacrifice because there is no temple, just as I don't leave my field ungathered because I am no farmer.

The Law doesn't say that Fenris... there lies your problem.

It's common sense. I'm allowed to use it too, you know

You guys speak of them being eternal...

It's not "us guys". the bible says they are eternal.

And by the way... I didn't say that the sacrificial laws were bad. I said they weren't required nor did God even desire sacrifice.

Except Jesus I suppose?

No... many of those came about because God was ticked off at the children of Israel.

A point you still haven't proved.

No it wasn't... it was unbiblical in every way for anyone claiming the name of Christ. In every way.

It was considered "common sense" at the time. That society has changed is why it doesn't make sense to us.

Again... I can only tell you what God said through the Prophet Ezekiel, Isaiah, etc.

Every verse you've provided was not understood by Jews the way you see it.

Huh? The fact that Moses included the Ten in the Law of Moses for the children of Israel to follow is simply a no-brainer. He did the same with circumcision which was given to the ForeFather Abraham... again another no-brainer.

The useless precepts and ordinances are the ones that have nothing to do with loving God with all your heart, soul and mind and loving your neighbor as yourself.

You've concluded that. It doesn't follow that it logically must be understood like that.

Well if God's laws give life (I've no problem with that terminology so we don't get lost in the usage of a word) and God gave them Laws which don't give life... God is not speaking of the Ten... that was made clear in the early part of the chapter... what Law is left. Don't boil a kid in it's mothers milk etc.

Or it was laws imposed on the Jews by their captors. That makes sense.

Uh... a perfect example actually.

Shrug. I disagree.

A warning "now don't kill Uriah?" Come on now... that's just the problem the Jews had back then and why God jacked them up so many times! There were two witnesses. Joab and Nathan... not to mention the ultimate witness being God who gave word through the prophet of that time. That was enough. Had it not been David, the person would be put to death having to pay for such a serious offense.

Not according to Jewish law.

Sure you don't see it the same way... if you did you'd be a Christian. As to how they practice it today... sure. If they go to stoning the offenders and putting them to death... National laws frown on that. It's a different time thus they practice it differently. Biblically though Fenris... they were very stern as Scripture shows.

Shrug. Again, that is not how they were applied.

But what was required for atonement of sin Fenris?

According to the bible? Lots of things.


I understand that only one of us can be right. But you read the bible as though there is no other way for the verses to be understood. As though logic can only lead to your belief system. This is not so.