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Thread: Three Days and Three Nights

  1. #286
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    Re: Three Days and Three Nights

    Quote Originally Posted by rstrats View Post
    watchinginawe,
    re: "Three night times are involved when considering Jesus' betrayal and imprisonment."


    What is there in scripture that makes it necessary to think that the Messiah is including His night time in the garden as part of His 3 night stay in the "heart of the earth"?
    Well, we could look at Jesus' words in Luke 9:

    Luke 9:20-22 He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God. And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing; Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

    And Luke 18:

    Luke 18:31-33 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.[/B]


    Now the above would qualify as prophesies of Jesus concerning His passion, death, and resurrection.

    Following are narrative events AFTER Jesus' resurrection.

    Luke 24:5-8 And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. And they remembered his words,

    And again, from Jesus' words to the Apostles:

    Luke 24:44-46 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

    In each account of the above, Jesus includes the events after the betrayal, the judgment of the Elders, the turning over unto the Gentiles, the putting to death by crucifixion, the burial, and the resurrection "the third day".

    Here is the sequence of events in Luke 22 after Jesus' prayer and being strengthened by the Angel:

    Luke 22:47-48 And while he yet spake, behold a multitude, and he that was called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them, and drew near unto Jesus to kiss him. But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?
    ...
    52-54 Then Jesus said unto the chief priests, and captains of the temple, and the elders, which were come to him, Be ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and staves? When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness. Then took they him, and led him, and brought him into the high priest's house. And Peter followed afar off.
    ...
    63-66 And the men that held Jesus mocked him, and smote him. And when they had blindfolded him, they struck him on the face, and asked him, saying, Prophesy, who is it that smote thee? And many other things blasphemously spake they against him. And as soon as it was day, the elders of the people and the chief priests and the scribes came together, and led him into their council,


    These are all recounted by Luke, showing the import of Jesus' prophesies concerning Him and the actual events, starting the evening of the Last Supper where Jesus was betrayed.
    Watchinginawe

    I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

  2. #287
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    Re: Three Days and Three Nights

    Quote Originally Posted by rstrats
    re: " Indeed, the topic at hand is paradoxical in many respects..."

    How so?
    Idioms and metaphors are often paradoxical. But let's keep it simple.

    Matthew 20:17-19 And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

    Notice the detailed sequence of events that Jesus says is to take place re: our other conversation regarding the "first night". Anyway, Jesus "the third day shall rise again".

    Matthew 12:38-40 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

    If one takes both above literally, as in Jesus "knowing how to count", etc. and Jesus knowing that there are 12 hours in a day and 12 hours in a night, and thus Jesus stated in Matthew 12 that He would be in the tomb 72 hours; then there is a paradox with what Jesus stated in Matthew 20 and in the other Gospels, especially in light of the narrative events concerning Jesus' passion, death, and resurrection.

    To resolve it, the "72 hour" folks decide that Jesus was placed in the tomb at sundown on Wednesday. And then:

    Jesus in tomb, night one.
    Jesus in tomb, day one.
    Night and day 1.

    Jesus in tomb, night two.
    Jesus in tomb, day two.
    Night and day 2.

    Jesus in tomb, night three.
    Jesus in tomb, day three.
    Night and day 3.

    Jesus rises again after 3 days, but at sundown. How does that reconcile, knowing Jesus knows how to count, and knows the difference between night and day, with Jesus' saying that the third day he shall rise again? Did he rise at sundown, or during the "day" as He says in Matthew 20?

    Now people who reckon according to the above use the "must have" approach to the recounting of the actual events in the Gospels. So it "must have" been Thursday as the first Sabbath, and Saturday as the weekly Sabbath, and that the women could only get the spices purchased and prepared on the Day of Preparation Friday and ran out of time, and thus had to wait until the first day of the week to come to the empty tomb which had been empty for 12 hours+ to that point.

    But if you read the narratives, none of that "invention" is recounted or indicated in any of them. Also, an evening resurrection contradicts Jesus saying He would rise during "day". Not "the third evening", or "the third night", but consistently "the third day".

    If one starts out with the assumption that Jesus predicted a time interval of 72 hours, then the narrative events are interpreted to add extra days and events to support the saying. You can pretty much make ANY Biblical prophecy or saying true by doing that, right? I can't abide by that.

    Anyway, Jesus' sayings on the topic before His death and resurrection appear to be paradoxical. However, in ALL cases, in ALL four Gospels and the rest of the New Testament, Jesus suffered betrayal and blasphemy, is judged, is crucified, buried, and risen from the dead the third day, just as He prophesied before the matter.
    Watchinginawe

    I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

  3. #288

    Re: Three Days and Three Nights

    watchinginawe,
    re: " Also, an evening resurrection contradicts Jesus saying He would rise during 'day'. Not 'the third evening', or 'the third night', but consistently 'the third day'. "


    How can you be so certain that the Messiah was referring to the daytime as opposed to the calendar day?

  4. #289
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    Re: Three Days and Three Nights

    Quote Originally Posted by rstrats View Post
    watchinginawe,
    re: " Also, an evening resurrection contradicts Jesus saying He would rise during 'day'. Not 'the third evening', or 'the third night', but consistently 'the third day'. "


    How can you be so certain that the Messiah was referring to the daytime as opposed to the calendar day?
    rstrats, I believe Jesus was making reference to a sequence of days, "the third day", and not necessarily whether it would be daylight or dark. My remarks were more towards showing how if one takes all the sayings literally, then they are immediately paradoxical. If Jesus means exactly 3 day periods and 3 night periods in Matthew 12, then saying He would rise "the third day" in Matthew 20 would have to be interpreted accordingly, and thus Jesus referencing which of the "days and nights" He would rise on, giving rise to a paradox.

    Notwithstanding the above, I also believe the narratives indicate that Jesus rose early the first day of the week, as in dawn or sunrise. So, from that perspective, it certainly is possible that Jesus could have been referencing both a sequence of days and the time of day when He prophesied on many occasions that He would rise "the third day".

    If you count up Jesus' references to His resurrection that we have recorded in the Gospels, on "the third day" is handily the most common. (I will look to see if I can find a previous post on this topic.)

    Interestingly, "the third day" reference is the one which most disagrees with the single supposed 72 hour reference in Matthew 12.

    Many reconcile that difference by assuming the very many "the third day" references actually refer to the one supposed 72 hour reference.

    For me, I reconcile that difference by assuming the supposed 72 hour reference is like and kind to the predominate "the third day" references. The reasoning for this is that we have the events of the passion, death, burial, and resurrection narrated for us. We even have Jesus Himself using "the third day" reference after His resurrection. The Gospels are written as narratives concerning just one Jesus Christ with the events of the passion, crucifixion, and the resurrected Christ being witnessed events. One is not asked to believe on or not Jesus Christ based on whether the account indicates He was in the tomb 72 hours. We know Jesus is the Christ because of His ministry, death, and resurrection. The Gospels were written after the fact already knowing the outcome and the identity of Jesus Christ.

    Luke 1:1-4 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

    Luke's major purpose of the Gospel is the recounting of the events in a narrative manner of that which was delivered by faithful witnesses to the Gospel writer and affirmed by the Holy Spirit.

    In the Gospel of Matthew, Matthew editorializes certain things to bring attention to the reader the prophecies fulfilled concerning Jesus. For example:

    Matthew 4:12-16 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee; And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles; The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.


    So Matthew brings context to the prophecy of Isaiah according to the actual narrative events, and this retrospectively and with inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

    Whatever is said concerning future events that precede actual narrative events must be put in context by the actual events recorded no matter how inconvenient that may be. Plus, concerning Jesus' passion, death, and resurrection, we have historical tradition observed concerning the same events. Some say that perhaps the church completely lost the sequence of events and at sometime later decided to institute celebrations based on their ignorant interpretation of the now published Gospels. I see no reason to doubt the historical tradition which surely had to match up with the Gospels, else they would have immediately been branded as fiction.

    All evidence to the believer points to Jesus Christ's birth, ministry, passion, judgment, crucifixion, burial, and resurrection as both a historical figure and historical events. We have written testimonies and historical tradition which give a strong credence to the historicity of Jesus Christ and His ministry, death, and resurrection.
    Watchinginawe

    I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

  5. #290

    Re: Three Days and Three Nights

    Quote Originally Posted by rstrats View Post
    "rstrats, like me, has been at this topic for many years now, maybe more than a decade."


    Actually, it's been more than 15 years.


    Re: "Many many studied posts on the topic have been exchanged."


    And so far no one who believes the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week, and who thinks the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb, and who tries to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the time has provided any examples which show that it was common to say that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred.
    Hi RStrats. I’m not sure I can show it was ‘common’ to refer to a period of time in exactly the manner you suggest any more than anyone else can show it wasn’t common to do so. (Very few if any references to ‘x days and x nights’ can be dated independently.) That it’s legitimate to refer to the interval between Friday and Sunday as ‘three days and three nights’ can, however, be shown with a reasonable degree of confidence. I have some brief thoughts on the matter here in case they’re of use/help: https://www.academia.edu/35166387/. God bless, James.

  6. #291

    Re: Three Days and Three Nights

    jbejon,
    re: "I’m not sure I can show it was ‘common’ to refer to a period of time in exactly the manner you suggest..."

    So far that has certainly been the case with the 6th day of the week crucifixion proponents who try to explain the lack of a third night.

  7. #292

    Re: Three Days and Three Nights

    @rstrats: Yes, I think that’s true. But bear in mind the situation. We have two competing claims to consider: a] that a period referred to by the expression X days and X nights must span at least X nights, and b] that a period referred to by the expression X days and X nights only needs to overlap with X days. As I say, I can’t prove b], but I don’t think a] can simply be assumed by default given the stereotyped nature of the expression X days and X nights (the expression X days and X-1 nights nowhere appears in Scripture) and the fact that option a] would almost inevitably have to contravene the normal inclusive day-count employed in Scripture.

    James.

  8. #293

    Re: Three Days and Three Nights

    jbejon,
    re: "Yes, I think that’s true."

    And up to now that has indeed been true.

  9. #294
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    Re: Three Days and Three Nights

    For me, it seems easy to calculate 3 days and three nights. All you have to do is understand the way God (and Jews) recon a day, and to understands that the "DAY" starts at night, so night comes first. (It would better be said, 3 Nights and 3 days...)

    God counts days by Evening to Evening, not midnight to midnight:

    Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

    So when the sun goes down, it is the beginning of the next day. Let's say 6 PM just as a reference point. At 6 AM, half the day is done. 6 AM was the start of a Jewish "day" (as apposed to the night which starts at 6 PM). So the "DAY" (24 hour day) is Evening to Morning then to Evening again.

    Matt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?... 50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

    Thursday - The Ninth Hour was in the afternoon on THURSDAY (3 PM - 9 hours from 6 AM). They would have left Him on the cross for a while to ensure He was dead as well. By the time all was confirmed, and Jesus was taken down it was more than likely Close to or past sun down. (He may even have been left on the cross through the night - not sure). So I see the Clock beginning to tick at the START of of the DAY 6 AM THURSDAY, but the death happening at 3 PM THURSDAY.

    DAY 1 (Daytime)
    6AM to 6PM THURSDAY - Judgement and DEATH (3PM) (Start of preparations to the body)

    NIGHT 1
    6 PM to 5:59 AM FRIDAY

    DAY 2 (daytime)
    6 AM to 6PM FRIDAY - Burial and preparations to the body
    1 Night

    NIGHT 2
    6 PM to 5:59 AM SATURDAY - Sabbath - no work done

    DAY 3
    6 AM to 5:59 PM SATURDAY - Sabbath - no work performed

    NIGHT 3
    6 PM to Right before sunrise - SUNDAY - RISEN on the THIRD DAY - Day 3 started at 6 PM (on Roman Saturday - Which is AM on Jewish Sunday)


    Mark 16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun. 3 And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre? 4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.

    Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.



    So then all is fulfilled this way: Does that make sense?
    Last edited by Soldier_of_Faith; Dec 1st 2017 at 04:16 PM. Reason: Re-wrote better

  10. #295

    Re: Three Days and Three Nights

    Soldier_of_Faith,
    re: "... SUNDAY - RISEN on the THIRD DAY..."

    Which would be the third day after a Thursday crucifixion. Thus 4 calendar days would be involved and be in line with Mark 8:31.

  11. #296
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    Re: Three Days and Three Nights

    Quote Originally Posted by rstrats View Post
    Soldier_of_Faith,
    re: "... SUNDAY - RISEN on the THIRD DAY..."

    Which would be the third day after a Thursday crucifixion. Thus 4 calendar days would be involved and be in line with Mark 8:31.
    ONLY if you are using a ROMAN calendar. My point is that they are using a Hebrew God designed calendar. 3 Days.

  12. #297

    Re: Three Days and Three Nights

    Soldier_of_Faith
    re: "ONLY if you are using a ROMAN calendar."

    I don't see how that would make a difference. Whether Roman or Hebrew - four calendar days would be involved either way.

  13. #298
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    Re: Three Days and Three Nights

    Quote Originally Posted by rstrats View Post
    Soldier_of_Faith
    re: "ONLY if you are using a ROMAN calendar."

    I don't see how that would make a difference. Whether Roman or Hebrew - four calendar days would be involved either way.
    I think I miss understood you. If you are saying that what I am saying fulfills Mark 8:31, then I would agree. And you are right, it actually works from both calendars.

  14. #299

    Re: Three Days and Three Nights

    OK, we're on the same page then.

  15. #300

    Re: Three Days and Three Nights

    The assumed resurrection on Sunday is a common error.

    Wednesday started at 12:00 am for our current catalogue of hours.

    However, for the Israelite, following the biblical narration, the day starts at the moment darkness covers the sky because our place has been away facing the Sun.

    This is to say, as a "standard", for the Israelite Wednesday finish when the sky starts to get dark and Thursday starts when is completely dark right after. No matter about 12 hours, 11 hours, whatever, the bible clears up this way of registering days by observing the sky and the clear period and the dark period.

    For Yom Kippur the bible states that this day starts at "sundown".

    No need to look for more explanations: sundown, ending of sunset means a new day has arrived.

    After Yom Kippur, the way to know if the new day has arrived, the custom is to go outside in the evening and watch the sky. If you can see three stars, then such is enough to declare that the new day has started. No watches, no clocks, no cell phones, but watching the sky and see three stars is an inherited custom since ancient times.

    With this information, we can clear up what day the Messiah died and when he was resurrected by God.

    Wednesday afternoon he was hanging on the cross. He died right before three stars were visible.

    PROBLEM: it was dark since 3:00 pm that day.

    He was buried practically when in the Israelite houses everybody was celebrating the ceremony called Passover. At the same time, when that ceremony was over, it was the starting of a feast of God called the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

    Notice that the feasts of God belong to God, not so to the "Jews". If for some reason you are not celebrating the feasts of God, then you yourself have not invite you to the celebration.

    God ordered to celebrate those feasts because their meaning as additional push to remember the whole process of salvation.

    Then, we have the counting of days following the biblical record starting in Genesis and forward.

    Day one

    Fifth day of the week first part: night. (for us Wednesday night)
    Fifth day of the week second part: day

    Day two.

    Sixth day of the week first part: night
    Sixth day of the week second part: day

    Day three

    Seventh day of the week first part: night
    Seventh day of the week second part: day.

    Three nights and three days, or three days and three nights.

    The Christ was resurrected by God right when three stars were seen on the sky.

    When others came to check about him, the Christ was resurrected already. No one claims that they saw him being resurrected, but they said when they arrived the tomb was already empty on the first day of the week.

    Dying right when the day before Passover finished and resurrected right when the day of rest finished, right in the interval between one day into the another.

    Again, forget about the twelve hours, forget about Wednesdays and Fridays, because in order to know the moment of his death and resurrection, it is a must to use the way of counting days the way the Israelite used to do it in those times.

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