Is Paul Arguing for Universal Salvation?

[the rookie]

Sure David, but your reasons for choosing "option 1" are thematic and not textual. Thus you seem to be overemphasizing one theme of Romans at the expense of another. I agree with everything you are saying, because what you are presenting is obviously a key theme of the book of Romans. But it's not the only theme; neither does that theme mitigate against the argument Paul is making in Romans 11 for a future mass conversion of individuals from one nation. That God happened to promise that very thing in the Old Testament only adds more forcefulness to Paul's argument; that Paul quotes one of the prophets that predicted that future event (Isaiah) also adds weight to the point that it will happen.

As we've agreed upon many times before, there is no difference between Jew and Gentile as it relates to salvation. But as Paul himself notes in Romans 9:4, there is a difference between Jew and Gentile that cannot be overlooked: God made promises to Jews that He did not make to Gentiles. Our friend Fenris has made that point on these forums many times. Why? Because, rhetorically, it's a point that must be addressed as it relates to the New Covenant and the manner in which its fulfillment seems on its face to be fundamentally different than what, say, Isaiah prophesied. Paul's ultimate point in Romans 9-11 - that culminates with the verse you highlighted (11:27) - is that no, God has not:

(1) Rejected His people. Paul himself is the proof that God has not rejected those whom He foreknew - which is a critical word indicating that God knew in advance that Israel would, for the most part (outside of the faithful remnant), reject their Messiah and "stumble" at their key moment in history. Paul brings up the argument in Romans 9-10 and now is addressing its implications, practically, here in Ch. 11.

(2) Allowed them to fall even though they have stumbled. Paul goes on here to make an astonishing argument - one I don't know that we fully appreciate. Paul's point here is that - because the root is holy - even the broken off branches (those that stumbled) are holy! That's an outrageous statement. Yet he warns Gentiles about being arrogant towards the broken off branches! Why? One reason is because humility recognizes that the rejection of the Jews was, in part, a God-ordained mechanism to bring forth His plan for the Gentiles. It's a God ordained "spirit of stupor" that Paul argued in Romans 9 He was well within His rights to do as the Potter. He can make the promises, cause the context of partial blindness so that the people will miss their fulfillment, yet have that rejection become the means for salvation to come to the Gentiles! Yet that feeds into the third point; God has not:

(3) Blinded the Jews fully and forever. Blindness has come "in part" and "until". There is a future time, Paul says, in which the partial blindness related to God's plan will be lifted. This is knit to "the fullness of the Gentiles" (distinction) - and in this way those who had been blinded will then see. Then, individually and in large numbers, they will get saved. Then, the stunning nature and details of the mysterious plan of God will be revealed to all, which causes Paul to exult in Him in 11:33-36.

Why is Paul praising God in those verses? Because of the mystery of God's plan - that it might look one way in his generation (God has rejected His people, the Israelites have stumbled and fallen, Israel has missed her divine moment) but in the future, God's wisdom will be fully vindicated. The Gospel will be preached to the Jew first, and then the Gentiles; but the "fullness" will actually "flip the script", as it were - Gentile first, then the Jews - leading to riches and glory for the whole earth. All of the prophecies of, say, Isaiah, will be fulfilled as they are written (meaning, it will "look like" what Paul's audience was expecting related to those promises - not "wooden literalism") - but their fulfillment will come in context to a glorious picture of harmony between two peoples that leads to harmony between two "realms" (the "mystery" as it relates to Ephesians 1-2, specifically Ephesians 1:9-10).

[episkopos]

The Rookie wrote....


(3) Blinded the Jews fully and forever. Blindness has come "in part" and "until". There is a future time, Paul says, in which the partial blindness related to God's plan will be lifted. This is knit to "the fullness of the Gentiles" (distinction) - and in this way those who had been blinded will then see. Then, individually and in large numbers, they will get saved. Then, the stunning nature and details of the mysterious plan of God will be revealed to all, which causes Paul to exult in Him in 11:33-36.

Why is Paul praising God in those verses? Because of the mystery of God's plan - that it might look one way in his generation (God has rejected His people, the Israelites have stumbled and fallen, Israel has missed her divine moment) but in the future, God's wisdom will be fully vindicated. The Gospel will be preached to the Jew first, and then the Gentiles; but the "fullness" will actually "flip the script", as it were - Gentile first, then the Jews - leading to riches and glory for the whole earth. All of the prophecies of, say, Isaiah, will be fulfilled as they are written (meaning, it will "look like" what Paul's audience was expecting related to those promises - not "wooden literalism") - but their fulfillment will come in context to a glorious picture of harmony between two peoples that leads to harmony between two "realms" (the "mystery" as it relates to Ephesians 1-2, specifically Ephesians 1:9-10).

I have trouble with this view for a few reasons. Precisely because, as you say, the script needs to be flipped in order to make sense of the view that natural Israel will turn to Christ. Not that I don't wish for this to happen, mind you.

To the Jew first and then the nations.

In the parable of the wedding feast we see the original invitees passing on the invitation. We then see Jesus sending out His servants into the highways and byways. That's the end of it. The original invitees do not repent and come back.

Also God says of they who did not believe...
They shall not enter My rest!!!!

I think the confusion comes in part from this one idea

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:



AND SO all Israel will be saved...not...AND THEN all natural Israel will be saved.

The fulness of the Gentiles saying comes from Genesis and refers to Ephraim...

Gen. 48:9And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

Actually in Hebrew this reads "melo hagoyim" or fulness of the nations (Gentiles). Exactly the same phrase that Paul uses.

So when the remnant of Ephraim unites with the remnant of Judah, then all Israel will be saved. ALL as in the coming together in Christ of the household of faith. This is consistent with Paul's preaching of the oneness of all in Christ...the middle wall of separation having been abolished.

FIRST the Jew and THEN the Gentile. That's it!

[the rookie]

You don't know that Paul was referencing Genesis 48:9; particularly when your interpretation of it really makes no sense at all in context to the whole of what Paul is saying and why he is saying it.

[episkopos]

You don't know that Paul was referencing Genesis 48:9; particularly when your interpretation of it really makes no sense at all in context to the whole of what Paul is saying and why he is saying it.

I do believe that Paul is referencing the passage in Genesis. This is consistent with the scriptures as a whole. I believe that the bible interprets itself, so to speak.

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Gal. 3:22

All includes the Jews! They must also leave all to follow Christ. Will a secular state ALL turn to Christ? Will God respect certain persons more than others. I dare say no.

[the rookie]

You're not exegeting Romans 11; you're quoting random scriptures to say what you want them to say. I'm not saying that God is "respecting certain persons more than others" any more than someone prophesying that thousands will get saved at the next Reinhard Bonnke crusade is predicting God will "favor the converts".

[episkopos]

Romans 11

1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Paul here is saying that God has not forsaken ALL the Jews, but rather has He preserved a remnant as in the days of Elijah. Paul himself is proof of this fact. He being a Jew.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Paul here is showing forth the unfolding plan of God. Lest any man should boast of his own specialness before the Lord. He has put both Jew and Gentile in a balance of sorts. A Jew cannot boast of his birthright, and a Gentile cannot boast against the Jew. We all rely on God for mercy.

13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

....save SOME of them! Just as the Jews will not come over to Christ as a totality, neither will the nations do so.

15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Here the Gentiles are warned of pride. Natural Israel was not spared and neither will the nations be spared. God has no favourites.

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

We see that God's judgments are conditional to an abiding faith. None of the unfaithful will be spared whether Jew or Gentile.

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Here is the difficult part. God doesn't blind a faithful people. He requires faithfulness! Those whom He is displeased with, He blinds. So the part of His people that displeased Him He blinded. This makes room for a larger scope of salvation that includes the nations. These nations are not called as a separate entity...but as one flock....the flock of Israel (the commonwealth of Israel. Holiness stems from being grafted into the holy vine. The branches are NOT holy of themselves. In this way there is NO DIFFERENCE whatsoever between a natural and a wild branch. Both are sustained by the vine.

So then Israel is made whole in THIS way. An Israel comprised of both Jews AND Gentiles. Jacob had 12 sons. Jews come from Judah. But the 10 northern tribes were scattered among the nations. God had rejected them. So out of the nations comes forth a remnant unto Israel. In this way they cannot boast of a natural birthright. Neither can the Jew who sees the "wild" branches grafted together WITH him. In this way God is glorified. No one people can put an exclusive claim on God.

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Had God wished to add Gentiles to the WHOLE nation of Israel He would have done just that. But God will not reject the Gentiles that have come to Him in order to graft the other half of Jews back in. It is a half AND a half that make a whole. A remnant AND a remnant. Neither will God repent of the blindness He has set on the hard of heart. He has sworn in His wrath that they who were unfaithful would never enter His rest.

God's ways are equal and just. All must show forth the fruits of a genuine repentance.

[David Taylor]

the argument Paul is making in Romans 11 for a future mass conversion of individuals from one nation. That God happened to promise that very thing in the Old Testament only adds more forcefulness to Paul's argument; that Paul quotes one of the prophets that predicted that future event (Isaiah) also adds weight to the point that it will happen.

I disagree that is what Paul is saying in Romans 11. Paul wasn't a postponement conversion guy; Paul was a repent now, and be converted guy. When the OT prophesied about the conversion of Israel, it pointed to the opportunity Christ would give when He would come, and He did that through the Cross; not a group event for only a small subset of Jews that might happen in one final year of the Earth's existence near the end only.

Paul's ultimate point in Romans 9-11 - that culminates with the verse you highlighted (11:27) - is that no, God has not:

(1) Rejected His people.

I agree. Paul throughout His epistles preaches repentance being available now, not postponed until later. The other NT writers preach the same thing. Nowhere does the NT carry a theme of postponment of salvation for the Jews until a final year at the end of time for only a small subset of all the Jews that had ever lived on the planet. So Yes, Paul taught that God has not rejected His people; but rather, God sent Jesus Christ to save Paul's people --- beginning in the generation Paul lived in, and spanning the rest of time. (Not postponing to the end of it).

(2) Allowed them to fall even though they have stumbled.

And this was a similar repeated theme throughout history. When the Jews stumbled, God let them fall. When the repented, He welcomed them back. God is in the present, and the immediate. Now that Christ has come, there is no excuse for anyone to remain in darkness; because as the NT states, whenever anyone repents, their blindness and their scales fall off.

(3) Blinded the Jews fully and forever. Blindness has come "in part" and "until". There is a future time, Paul says, in which the partial blindness related to God's plan will be lifted. This is knit to "the fullness of the Gentiles" (distinction) - and in this way those who had been blinded will then see. Then, individually and in large numbers, they will get saved. Then, the stunning nature and details of the mysterious plan of God will be revealed to all, which causes Paul to exult in Him in 11:33-36.

The blindness of Jews has never been without recourse. From the beginning of the NT, the ability to triumph over blindness has been available to every single Jew, from every single generation. Romans 11 is not saying God has purposefully blinded without recourse, Jews until the end of time. That's not what that passage is saying at all. It simply saying that as long as the Gentiles are coming in, some Jews will choose to remained blinded. Other Jews however, will choose to repent and with believing Gentiles be graffed in. The NT several times goes into details telling us who is Israel and who is not. Who is a Jew and who is not. Who is of the circumcision and who is not. Who is a true son of Abraham and who is not. Who is a child of the promise and who is not. And in every case, it is of repentance and faith; and it is open and available to every Jews to participate in. Noone is forced by God into a state of blindness until some final year at the end of time.



Why is Paul praising God in those verses? Because of the mystery of God's plan - that it might look one way in his generation (God has rejected His people, the Israelites have stumbled and fallen, Israel has missed her divine moment) but in the future, God's wisdom will be fully vindicated. [/QUOTE]

Or....more simply, God hasn't rejected any person that He created, but through Christ and the cross, every single one, whosever will repent and turn to Him, can immediately have remission of sins and repentence; so that eventually by the time CHrist does return, the Gentiles will be full and all Israel will be saved; not encompassing solely one future endtime subgroup; but encompassing all who have had the opportunity throughout the entire NT era; and have chosen to be faithfully graffed into the Root.

You can't properly understand Romans 11, and attempt to make an application of it into doctrinal expectations, without also properly understanding and harmonizing that with the following verses...

"For Isaiah saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. " 2 Cor 6:2

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37

"for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. " John 4:22

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation." Acts 2:36


In ending, I'm all for the salvation of Israel; and for the blindness falling off of any and all Israelite. However, I just don't believe the scripture teaches postponement of that for them; but rather, an open invitation to each Israelite within the generation and withing the years that they each live in. The Cross opened the way of salvation for the blinded Jew. All they have to do is follow the paths of repentence that many of their fellow countrymen did throughout the NT writings, and their scales will immediately fall away. The Great Commission is alive and well within the Jewish people. Today is the day for their salvation; not tomorrow.

[the rookie]

I disagree that is what Paul is saying in Romans 11. Paul wasn't a postponement conversion guy; Paul was a repent now, and be converted guy. When the OT prophesied about the conversion of Israel, it pointed to the opportunity Christ would give when He would come, and He did that through the Cross; not a group event for only a small subset of Jews that might happen in one final year of the Earth's existence near the end only.

As I've said many times, I agree with you. Again, this biblical concept does not mitigate against a prophecy of a future event dealing with mass individual conversions. To prophesy that "New York City will experience revival, thousands will be saved in a moment" doesn't negate the present invitation of the gospel to New Yorkers or postpone the salvation of New Yorkers who get saved today. So this is a non-issue.

I agree. Paul throughout His epistles preaches repentance being available now, not postponed until later. The other NT writers preach the same thing. Nowhere does the NT carry a theme of postponment of salvation for the Jews until a final year at the end of time for only a small subset of all the Jews that had ever lived on the planet. So Yes, Paul taught that God has not rejected His people; but rather, God sent Jesus Christ to save Paul's people --- beginning in the generation Paul lived in, and spanning the rest of time. (Not postponing to the end of it).

As I've said many times, I agree with you. Again, this biblical concept does not mitigate against a prophecy of a future event dealing with mass individual conversions. To prophesy that "New York City will experience revival, thousands will be saved in a moment" doesn't negate the present invitation of the gospel to New Yorkers or postpone the salvation of New Yorkers who get saved today. So this is a non-issue.

And this was a similar repeated theme throughout history. When the Jews stumbled, God let them fall. When the repented, He welcomed them back. God is in the present, and the immediate. Now that Christ has come, there is no excuse for anyone to remain in darkness; because as the NT states, whenever anyone repents, their blindness and their scales fall off.

What does, "Did they stumble in order that they might fall" mean? It surely doesn't mean "God let them fall". It's a rhetorical question implying the opposite, that they have not fallen. If Paul is saying that about unsaved Jews who have stumbled, what is he talking about? How does Israel "stumble" (reject Jesus) but not fall? (Answer: 11:26-27)

The blindness of Jews has never been without recourse. From the beginning of the NT, the ability to triumph over blindness has been available to every single Jew, from every single generation. Romans 11 is not saying God has purposefully blinded without recourse, Jews until the end of time. That's not what that passage is saying at all. It simply saying that as long as the Gentiles are coming in, some Jews will choose to remained blinded.

Here's where we part ways a bit. I think you are overlooking the substance of Paul's argument as it relates to His plan and His sovereignty. That Paul isn't saying what you assert is clear in 11:32 - God in His sovereignty, as it relates to His plan for the future, has consigned them to disobedience. It's a bit more intense a point than what you are saying.

Other Jews however, will choose to repent and with believing Gentiles be graffed in. The NT several times goes into details telling us who is Israel and who is not. Who is a Jew and who is not. Who is of the circumcision and who is not. Who is a true son of Abraham and who is not. Who is a child of the promise and who is not. And in every case, it is of repentance and faith; and it is open and available to every Jews to participate in.

As I've said many times, I agree with you. Again, this biblical concept does not mitigate against a prophecy of a future event dealing with mass individual conversions. To prophesy that "New York City will experience revival, thousands will be saved in a moment" doesn't negate the present invitation of the gospel to New Yorkers or postpone the salvation of New Yorkers who get saved today. So this is a non-issue.

No one is forced by God into a state of blindness until some final year at the end of time.

It's partial blindness, and to really grapple with the passage, you have to deal with the concept as Paul expresses it and not dismiss it or diminish it. It's Paul's explanation for why (unsaved) Israel missed her "divine moment" and her Messiah, thus missing her promises in his generation.

Or....more simply, God hasn't rejected any person that He created, but through Christ and the cross, every single one, whosever will repent and turn to Him, can immediately have remission of sins and repentence; so that eventually by the time CHrist does return, the Gentiles will be full and all Israel will be saved; not encompassing solely one future endtime subgroup; but encompassing all who have had the opportunity throughout the entire NT era; and have chosen to be faithfully graffed into the Root.

That doesn't really address "depths" though it does address "riches" Secondly, it doesn't have to be "either / or" it can be "both / and". You haven't really explained why it can't be "both / and" - mostly you've asserted that it won't be, which makes little sense.

You can't properly understand Romans 11, and attempt to make an application of it into doctrinal expectations, without also properly understanding and harmonizing that with the following verses...

Honestly, that sentence isn't that helpful. Before I harmonize theological concepts, I have to break down what Paul is saying first. Then I have to apply what I understand to the rest of scripture. If it doesn't fit, I have to go back and look at the passage again to find what I missed. Otherwise I may import biases and inferences into the text that aren't there.

As it relates to the verses themselves, none of them eliminate the possibility of a future mass conversion of Jews. You can't say to a Jew that isn't alive yet "today is the day of your salvation". It's a prophecy. Were the Jews of Isaiah's day able to embrace authentic faith in God, or did his prophecies restrict them to a future time when Jesus walked the earth? Remember, you're not arguing against a dispensationalist, David. A true dispensationalist won't even evangelize a Jew - which I find to be unbiblical and cruel.

In ending, I'm all for the salvation of Israel; and for the blindness falling off of any and all Israelite. However, I just don't believe the scripture teaches postponement of that for them; but rather, an open invitation to each Israelite within the generation and withing the years that they each live in. The Cross opened the way of salvation for the blinded Jew. All they have to do is follow the paths of repentence that many of their fellow countrymen did throughout the NT writings, and their scales will immediately fall away. The Great Commission is alive and well within the Jewish people. Today is the day for their salvation; not tomorrow.

Agreed!

[David Taylor]

It's partial blindness, and to really grapple with the passage, you have to deal with the concept as Paul expresses it and not dismiss it or diminish it. It's Paul's explanation for why (unsaved) Israel missed her "divine moment" and her Messiah, thus missing her promises in his generation.

The difference though, is your idea of a postponed salvation event for Israel isn't for "all" Israel at all.

It isn't for Israel of Paul's generation who missed it the first time.
It isn't for Israel of Irenaeus in the 2nd century A.D. who missed it the first time.
It isn't for Israel of the 3rd, 4th, 5th, or 17th, 18, 19, 20th centuries either, who missed it during their time.

So what a postponement expectation creates, is not a salvation of "all" Israel, but only a minute, sub-set of Israelites that might be living in the very last generation of mortal time. All Israelites of all time, the great and vast majority, missed out, and will always stay missed out...from her promises.

But that's not what Peter taught, and I believe likewise, why Paul is teaching a progressive salvation of Israelites over time, not all at once for a small subset at the end.

Peter said the promises were to the Jews of all the House of Israel in the 1st century A.D. if they would just repent.

Acts "Peter said unto [all the house of Israel], Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children"

So the divine appointment and the promises were there all the time...to every generation of Israelites.

What did Paul tell us the promise would be that Christ has offered them?

The same as Peter....Romans 11:27 "this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." It's been available since Peter's sermon; not a missed divine appointment at all.

So what does that tell us?

The Jews of the 1st century didn't really miss their promises in their generation...the opportunity was there for them.
Likewise in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, ..... 18th, 19, and 20th.....just like Peter says, to her and to her children in onward generations.

Paul is wrapping up the graffting of the Jews into the Olive Tree at the second coming, which also happens to coincide with the graffting of the fullness of the Gentiles. Yet noone seems to think or say that all the Gentiles living in the last generation will also have a group salvation event. And they shouldn't.

I'm all for the salvation of each and every Israelite. I just don't believe Paul taught postponement for a small subgroup only, that would qualify as participants. I believe Paul meant an ongoing process of salvation that would span the entire NT harvest era, continually graffting them in. And I believe there are enough passage concering the final period leading up to the 2nd Coming to dismiss the idea of any last-minute, 11th hour salvation event for any mass group. There will be mass falling away and apostacy; so severe that all the elect would not survive if Christ didn't intervene and Appear.

Paul's hope of the graffting, is for the daily and continued repentence and remission of sins individually, for all people; Jews and Gentiles; until the Deliverer comes. I really don't see Romans 11 saying otherwise, and I haven't seen any other clear passages elsewhere teaching this. I see some obscure and questionable OT passages occasionally mentioned, but without any real substance, meat, or clear NT corroberation or expectation.

But maybe I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

[the rookie]

Who said that "all Israel" has to mean "all Israel throughout all the ages"? Isn't that the perspective that opened this thread - and aren't we rebutting and refuting that perspective on the passage?

Secondly, why can't the phrase, in context to Paul's argument, be speaking of a future mass conversion of individuals by faith (through grace)? You haven't really been clear on this point.

Finally, why do you keep arguing points I've gone to great lengths to assert are not the point, the issue, or even in view? It seems odd to me that we're going in circles here. You say, "postponement of Israel's salvation is wrong. Salvation is for today!" I say, "I know. I agree. I'm not saying that, and in fact, I think that any view that states that a Jew can't get saved today is both (to quote my last post) 'unbiblical and cruel'." You say, "I'm sorry, the difference in our views is that I cannot subscribe to a postponement view. Salvation is for today!" Which leaves me going, "Um, I know that. This would be my third or fourth consecutive post agreeing with that point."

Again, a prophecy about a mass conversion of Jews that haven't been born yet - a moment in the future that will benefit the whole earth greatly (far greater than the failure of the earlier generation of Jews that rejected Him) - isn't a "postponement view". It's a prophecy. It's a prediction. It's a statement about the future. It's a snapshot in time. It's not a statement to the Jews that they can't, shouldn't, or won't get saved today so "don't bother". The difference in our views is not "postponement". I'm begging you, please don't post again on "postponement". It's killing me.

[David Taylor]

ok. my intent on the topic was both to address why i dont see a prophesied mass group salvation, and also the reason why many (not you) do often hold a postponement view...some dispensationalists to the extreme that they do teach God's plan of salvation doesnt start until the "7-year" trib they perceive for Israel only.

Btw, can you go back and read and reply to posts 94-96? I missed them earlier, but found post 96 to be a very solid exegete of Romans 9-11. It also reminded me of the withered fig tree cursed henceforth, and the parable of the vinyard...all examples of the kingdom removed from the group not restored again at the end.

[the rookie]

Maybe I read those posts wrong, but I felt like you two were saying essentially the same thing. I didn't have the energy to answer the same point I wasn't making twice

Plus, that brother lost me after the random Genesis cross-reference that was later backed up when challenged with, "I believe that it is talking about that verse..."

[David Taylor]

i was moreso talking about when you asked him in post 95 to exegete romans 11 instead of referencing the genesis passage in post 94, and his followup post 96 doing your requested exegetical analysis of Romans 11. I tbougbt he exegeted it very clearly in post 96, and even though you requested him to do it, you didnt reply to it. I figured you missed it.

[the rookie]

I didn't reply because he was speaking conceptually, not exegetically. Doing so removes a measure of objectivity needed to come to a resolution.

[David Taylor]

I just went back and re-read his post 96. He lists a few scriptures, then he explains what he believes Paul is trying to get across. He lists a few more scriptures, and he explains what Paul in saying in the next set, and so forth. To me, that is exegeting the scriptures. List them, and share what you think the author is saying, and the points the author is trying to get across. He addresses the scriptures similarly to how a Matthew Henry or Adam Clarke commentary would approach the scriptures, to discuss them and expound upon them. To this point in this thread, he's the only one I've seen break out every part of Romans 11 and specifically address each section.